The days of Disney entertainment youth ministries and glorified daycare youth ministries appear numbered in the phenomenon known as American student ministry. And I say, AMEN.
With men like Jay Strack, Alvin Reid and Doug Fields Raising the Bar, there appears to be a fresh wind of doctrinal teaching blowing across the landscape of student ministry. This wind seems to have its roots in the void that was left by the game-centered youth ministries of the 80’s.
The importance of this change cannot be minimized. More and more student ministers are coming to realize the importance of teaching theology and expositing Scriptures. More are realizing: if you get youth to church on a hamburger they will leave for a hot-dog. The realization that we cannot and should not compete with Hollywood or Disney for the attention of youth is revolutionizing student ministry. The concept of getting them in on the Word of God is a welcome and reviving change.
Doctrine is essential to solid student ministries and I will give 2 reasons why Student ministers should teach their youth systematic theology. The first is the essential reason; the second is the practical reason.
1. By in large there is a void in theological aptitude in the Churches in America.
Of the churches I have been a part of, there has been a theological naiveté in many members when it comes to soteriology, ecclesiology, pneumatology, eschatology, hamartiology, and more. I do not fault the members, as much as I fault the pastors and youth pastors. This naiveté is seen in theological pop writing, blogs and psychology of the day, as well as cultish beliefs. Theology is essential to the life of a church. Just ask Baptists who have lost members to the JW’s.
2. Youth are very receptive to studying theology.
Anyone who has dealt with youth knows that teens make up a sub-culture that is very teachable and open to spiritual ideas. George Barna’s Real Teens testifies to this. This generation is perhaps the most spiritually open generation we have seen. Further, as evidenced on blogs, many of those participating in theological discussions are young men and women. This is especially true of those who approach theology with an open mind and a desire to learn. Oh, that we would all be teachable in theology.
The issues that we have covered on this blog: holiness, baptism, tongues, etc are theological issues. I am of the firm opinion that student pastors should be just as well-trained in theology as pastors and like senior pastors, they should teach theology (they may find the students are more open and receptive than the older generation).
I encourage all student pastors to take their students through a systematic theology curriculum. I say this as one who has done so. (Relying heavily on Millard Erickson’s Christian Theology I developed a curriculum which I used, to teach both youth and adults systematic theology. The youth had many more questions and were far more engaged.)
Further, since youth are very involved in blogs, a blog would be an excellent place for a student pastor to allow his youth to discuss theological issues they may have covered in their meetings.
BR
PS – I have received some e-mails asking me to respond to Wade’s post about me and my thoughts on Baptism. I purposed to not allow this blog to be about personalities but about subjects. Therefore, I have no desire to get into any type of posting battle involving personalities, which would only have negative affects on my already too sinful pride.
However, to be fair to his concerns and questions I have posted a response in my comments under the previous post. The response is dated 12/23/2006 2:43 PM. I think we should gladly seek truth in this realm. I feel however, the truth seeking should be solely about subjects, not individuals.
Further, if you want to discuss this, please post your comments under the previous post as this one deals with teaching students theology. Thank you in advance and may all have a Merry Christmas. I will be posting some thoughts on Christmas soon.
BR
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101 comments:
Merry CHRISTmas!...God Bless
Brad,
Great post. I read all of Erickson and Grudem during my systematic days at SBTS. I have found another good resource for teaching theology both to students and adults. Wayne Grudem has written "Bible Doctrine," a lay-person's version of his Systematic Theology. I bought a copy for possible student ministry use. Now, I have decided to do periodic theology message series' mixed in with my other thematic sermon series.
God bless, and Merry Christmas!
Brad,
AMEN!
There have been many who have figured this out and begun teaching theology classes in their churches. I started a study through Grudem's Bible Doctrines for my adult Wed. night class & it has been very well received. I do know of several churches who have used the same book with their youth and see hundreds participate.
I hope many more go the same.
Blessings,
John
Geoff
Praise God!!! Grudem is an excellent theology also. His bible doctrine is great to use. I usually recommend youth pastors or pastors to develop their own curriculum relying heavily on men like Grudem or Erickson simply because we usually don't see eye to eye with any one theologian.
Anyway, I am seeing more and more see the importance of this.
Praise God.
BR
Jeffro
Agreed on everything except Erickson:)
For too long we have heard we need to meet people's felt needs when in reality people don't know their true needs...like salvation!
BR
Pastor John
Praise God for you my friend. May we all teach so.
BR
Brad,
I agree that we need to teach youth theology, but I believe it should be from an expanded format of theological disciplines.
They need not only to study a Systematic theology, but they need to be well versed in Biblical, Practical, Historical and Contemporary theologies also.
We have gone far beyond the time when being armed with nothing more than something like SPURGEON'S 1855 CATECHISM is enough for promoting a Biblical Worldview in this convoluted society youth find themselves in today.
cb
Dr. Reynolds,
I think your decision to simply not post a "reply" to Wade is wise. For my part, I would not desire to see your blog go the way of some I've noticed that seem to be running "debates" between certain parties.
The comments about theologians is interesting. Erickson, humorously, would not be accepted by some of your commenters here for his view of the Ordinances. The treatises on Baptism & The Supper are entitled respectively--"The Initiatory Rite of the Church: Baptism" and "The Continuing Rite of the Church: The Lord's Supper."
One will look in vain for a developed ecclesiology, however, in either Boyce or Dagg's systematic theology. Dagg later redeemed his oversite with his Manual of Church Order while Boyce apparently did not.
Grace for tomorrow. With that, I am...
Peter
Dr. Brad,
A very civil topic during a time of good will. Young people are up against the ever confusing pull of the world. Salvation is of the utmost importance, whatever sparked their interest to seek it. But how awesome it is to really have the Light of Truth and understand it at a time when so many roads diverge.
Dr. Reynolds,
Just a note. First, my apologies for the redundant citing of Erickson's text about "Initiation Rite." I saw you wisely cited it on the previous thread only after I'd written it here.
Second, I want to encourage you that you're just going to have to be clearer in your presentations on your theological positions. Over at the other site where your view was critiqued, I discovered, through a bit of socratic discussion, that I'm afraid they simply do not understand your view, Dr. Reynolds.
As the discussion thread nicely shows, the charge against you:
a) began relatively hard as "it is difficult to avoid the conclusion that Dr. Reynolds' IS Landmark," then,
b) thawed a bit to "Dr. Reynolds' view is SIMILAR to Landmark," then,
c) unfortunately froze over rock solid at the end with: "Dr. Reynolds' view is PURE Landmark."
Do your students have this much trouble understanding you, my Brother?:)
I trust your day grace filled. With that, I am...
Peter
Brad,
I'm sure you know Grudem is a continualist who could not serve as an IMB missionary.
So, we will exclude him from taking the gospel to the nations but not from teaching theology to our Southern Baptist pastors and people.
Interesting.
:)
Merry Christmas
CT
Thank You
BR
Peter
Excellent points about Boyce and Dagg.
My students don’t seem to be having the same problems that you say those on the other blog are having.
It is interesting that those on the other blog don’t like name-calling like “liberals” but are ok with name-calling like “Landmark.” To me, and perhaps I am a little subjective, but that certainly appears dublicitous.
If one issues a call to stop name-calling and then calls others names, the very sincerity of the call is questioned.
BR
Wade
Thank you and a Merry Christmas to you also my brother.
I think your comment has two errors and a fact I did not know inherent in it:
1) To teach the writings of some is not the same of indoctrinating them, nor is it the same as endorcing all they say. I would certainly teach my church the writings of Martin Luther but that does not mean I agree with all he says nor does it mean (at ALL) that I would pay him with CP funds to be a Missionary.
2) I am not sure SB can exclude anyone from taking the gospel to the nations. I don’t think we have that kind of power. God could certainly do that but we cannot. We can choose not to pay nonSB with CP funds and I think we should (while some may be comfortable being an ecumenical organization, I prefer to remain Southern Baptist.
3) I did not know Dr. Grudem personally had a private prayer language. I appreciate your help in this area.
God Bless
BR
mmm sounds like an unhappy IMB trustee is now narrowing the paremeters.. now the IMB is supposed to be against continualists? Amazing.. so when was this motion passed by the IMB BOT?
If it was a motion passed, then why is it only now coming to light?
Will the said Trustee retract his statement as a lie?
Brother Brad,
Merry Christmas!
I agree with Lifeway Rep. Did the IMB pass a policy to exclude candidates with continualist theology? I did not know they did. This may be off topic, but I do not remember that being passed. However, Brother Wade is an IMB Trustee and if he says they passed a policy that candidates with continualist theology cannot serve, then they probably did. I thought he said he had pricipled dissent against PPL and Baptism Policies. Now he says they passed a policy to not allow continualists to serve as missionaries.
I too believe he needs to explain what it is they passed.
Blessings,
Tim
Tim and Lifeway Rep,
Good luck getting a straight answer out of Wade. Normally he only does drive by's on the site and never really answers difficult questions. I have found him to be evasive and elusive at best. Stir the pot and run mentality.
Baylor Grad
Pastor Tim Rogers,
What is the difference between a theoritical continualist and an experiental continualist?
Would it be similar to a person teaching the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith, but not actually experiencing it?
You and Mr. Anonymous lifeway rep would do well to sort through your logical conclusions. With your belief that it is alright to 'believe' in continualism, but not actually 'practice' continualism in your private prayers, then your logic would lead to the SBC being open to a person teaching salvation by grace through faith to our pastors, but for heaven's sake, if they actually experienced it, then we must exclude them from missions ministry.
:)
Please pay attention to the logic of my comment, don't get bogged down in the the illustration.
Why the logic and not the illustration?
Because if you at all allow the teaching of continualism as a valid interpretation of the word of God, then you must allow the experience of it (if not in your own life, at least in the lives of others.
Logic demands it.
Think about it.
Gentleman,
Let's stick to the issues and avoid personal attacks.
Wade,
I think the point the other gentlemen were making is that you said our policies would "exclude (Grudem) from taking the gospel to the nations." And that is not a factual but rather a fictional statement, unless he actually has a prayer language or unless the policy has been changed.
I think the logic is pretty clear.
BR
Brother Brad,
Delete this post if you feel you need to in order to stay on post. However the seemingly sarcastic response from our Brother Wade seems to demand a response from me.
Brother Wade,
You do not get a free pass. You said; "I'm sure you know Grudem is a continualist who could not serve as an IMB missionary." The IMB has not passed a policy that says "continualist" cannot serve as IMB missionaries. This is what you said. I have not taken it out of context. I have quoted it just the way you said it.
I ask again; what was the policy that the IMB passed? Was it a policy against continualist theology or was it a policy against the doctrine of pentecostalism known as the gift of tongues?
Blessings,
Tim
Wade,
Please show the exact wording of the motion and declare the votes for and against of those that passed this motion to ban continualists from serving in the IMB.
You have issued a public statement that such a motion was made. Your integrity as a trustee demands that you give proof of your statement. This is a fourth request.
If you do not give proof you should be stood down from the IMB BoT.
Lifeway rep
Lifeway rep
You are new here and I welcome you. You have strong feelings and that is not bad...but here on this blog we try to keep things very kind.
I appreciate your service and your concern for the SBC, but I feel I have failed many times in being Christlike in my response to others. It is a common theme these days. I am asking you to help me keep everything Christlike here.
You have valid concerns.
BR
Mr. Anonymous and Pastor Tim,
Please pay attention.
The policy forbids appointment of a candidate with a private prayer language.
I am pointing out the irony in this comment string of those who praise the theological works of 'continualists,' but on the other hand, wish to support the ban of 'experiential continualists.'
That kind of thinking is logically consistent with someone who praises a person who teaches salvation by grace, but bars another person who actually experiences it from being a missionary.
To be logically consistent, you must ban both the person who teaches continualism AND the person who practices a private prayer language.
Again, Mr. Lifeway and Tim, my comments are related not toward IMB policy, but Brad's (and your's by jumping in) logical inconsistency in praising the theological works of continualists while supporting the ban of missionaries who practice continualism -- in private.
If you can't understand the logic in what I am saying, then possibly I am not communicating very well and I apologise.
By the way Brad.
Thanks for your encouragement to keep things civil.
Have you asked Grudem if he has a private prayer language?
wade
Brad,
I am thrilled to see you list the need and the turn in trend in Student ministry. We are blessed here to have a Youth guy who is doing thus and the fruit is incredible. My son is in the youth group and what a thrill to over hear his conversations on the cell phone (yes I do listen in!!!) as the buds discuss theology after STudent night. They even started a group session on how to be Godly young men.
Keep it up! I cannot wait to meet you in person!
P.S. Your discussion on baptism is indeed totally being misunderstood by the "logic" approach which is not surprising!
Lifeway Rep,
You have very valid concerns as do many other Southern Baptists, but Wade will never take you seriously. He only replies when it benefits him. I think he realizes that he is losing his following. That is why he makes unsubstanciated allegations agiant Brad and others, but never backs them up. Brad and others, myself included have tried to engage Wade in serious dialogue, but only receive drive bys. Do not take it personally. Most likely a year from now no one will remember all of this anyway. The response will be Wade WHO?
Baylor Grad
Brad: I am VERY concerned about our teenagers learning what they believe, understande what they believe it and why they ought to believe what they believe.
Question: You said, "Of the churches I have been a part of, there has been a theological naiveté in many members when it comes to soteriology, ecclesiology, pneumatology, eschatology, hamartiology, and more."
Do youth ministers need to teach these theological terms to their young people as a seminary professor would his students? Or do you see the need for them to be taught the Bible expositionally (?) so they understand God and His instructions for us to manifest Christ in our actions and words?
Our church is getting ready to hear a youth minister in view of a call in January. It's scary. I trust our search committee completely. We have a very large group of youth and they do multiple things for our church, for missions, for outreach. While I believe that is vital and necessary, I agree that they are hungry for deeper truth.
I think the blog idea is an absolutely great idea for deeper study. And I think the fact that youth could log on anonymously or incognito would make it all the more helpful for them. Since their greatest problem at this age is feeling stupid for asking stupid questions, it would be good if the youth minister was well-trained in facilitating, too. Wow! Lots of things to consider, hmmmn?
Blessings...SelahV
Brad,
You stated that:
"We can choose not to pay nonSB with CP funds and I think we should (while some may be comfortable being an ecumenical organization, I prefer to remain Southern Baptist."
Who is saying that we should send non-SB as IMB missionaries? I too would certainly oppose this.
TC
Wade
I may be mistaking and if so I apologize but I believe your words were “we will exclude (Grudem) from taking the gospel to the nations.” Tim and Lifeway Rep rightly pointed out that this is a nonfactual statement, unless the policy has changed.
You appear to be trying to make it a factual statement using what you suggest is a logical analogy. However, there are some problems inherent. First, even if one were to assume the logic flowed your original statement is still erroneous. Second, I read Marin Luther and encourage others to read him, that does not mean I agree with everything he writes (infant baptism).
Thus, to assume that “encouragement in reading/teaching Grudem’s theology” is equivalent to “total agreement with all he writes” is not necessarily logical (at least from where I sit).
Hope this helps
BR
Tim
Praise God for your youth minister. We are seeing more and more of these men.
BR
Baylor Grad
I allowed this comment. But please hear this as a gentle reproof. I have just encouraged Lifeway Rep and you should have read that. I will not publish another comment like the one you just wrote. There is no reason to make this personal. It does not help your position. I think your position is solid without resorting to personal comments.
BR
Selahv
Good to hear from you again. I am not suggesting we have to use words like supralapsarian when we teach theology but I do think we should teach systematic theology in addition to exegeting Scriptures. When I was a youth pastor, we went through books like Galatians, James, and even Hebrews but we also had systematic theology lessons. The youth responded very positively and are theologically grounded still today. I’ll pray for your church…calling a youth pastor is HUGE.
BR
Tim Cowin
SB have not historically been Charismatics.
BR
Brother Wade,
You say that my logic fails and you give this example. "That kind of thinking is logically consistent with someone who praises a person who teaches salvation by grace, but bars another person who actually experiences it from being a missionary."
Brother David Rogers believes in a continualist position but does not have the gift of PPL. No one has said that someone from that extent would be barred from service. According to your statement; "I'm sure you know Grudem is a continualist who could not serve as an IMB missionary." Brother Brad is banning people that have the beliefs of Brother David from service. That is not what the policy says that was adopted. You seem to be adding to the use of the policy based on your personal disagreements with the IMB BoT.
Also, your statement; "my comments are related not toward IMB policy, but Brad's (and your's by jumping in) logical inconsistency in praising the theological works of continualists while supporting the ban of missionaries who practice continualism" does not point to illogical thinking. Many works are read and praised by many but do not allow those that retain that theology in service in the SBC. One example is Dr. Craig Keener. He is a great NT Theologian, but is a continualist that has a spiritual gift of tongues. While he is a wonderful person, he would not qualify as a missionary in the IMB. I applaud his works and use his writings.
According to what I am understanding you are advocating, someone that is not a Calvinist should not read the Institutes because they do not agree with all 5 points of Reformed Doctrine.
Blessings,
Tim
This whole "Wayne Grudem" thing is, in a word, absurd. I'm almost sorry I brought his name up. I didn't realize it would stir up all of this ruckus. But I sincerely doubt that he'll ever seek an appointment with the IMB, so the entire recurring subject is pointless.
Just think about it. All of us (in the ministry) have studied, in our SBC seminaries, the theologies and works of men (and women) who, for various reasons, might not be qualified for service as SBC missionaries. We can still read and be personally edified by their written works. We can be inspired by their testimonies and their stories, yet we will always do so through the "filter" of our own theology. I read blogs and web sites every day written by people who are in very different theological realms than I, yet I can always learn something edifying. We do not have to accept "the whole package" in order to appreciate a scholar or theologian. If I had to do that, I would be forced th throw away about 80 - 90% of my library. We all would.
But to compare admiration for a theologian to our SBC qualifications for missionaries is ridiculous. It's one thing to read someone's book. It's quite another to select and commission them to represent all Southern Baptists on the international mission field. Apples and oranges. There is no "logical consistency" connection.
Brad, you aptly stated that the IMB has not "excluded" or "banned" anyone from the mission field. No, we (via the IMB) do not have that power. The only thing that has been denied in a handful of cases is salaried support and a denominational commissioning. We have had a most thorough discussion of this on Bart Barber's blog. I recommend checking it out. If someone is truly called to missions, they will go. Nothing will be able to stop them. We all know people who serve through other boards and organizations. No one is "entitled" to a missionary appointment simply because they hold the title, "Southern Baptist." Anyhow, that's how I see it...
Brad, sorry for the novella ... had to get it out.
Brad,
I do appoligize for my comments. When I wrote them I intended no harm, but when I read them again, I realized you are correct. They are a bit personel. My comment of "Wade Who?" was motivated from a pastor meeting two weeks ago and hearing several pastors who believed in Wade six months ago, but now see he has a political agenda, and are sick of the retoric. That meeting allowed me to open my eyes too.
I tire of Wade and Tim Cowin using your site to stir the pot and then run, and never give a full account for their comments.
I do highly respect you and will be more careful in the future. Have a wonderful New Year.
Baylor Grad
Brad,
Maybe you ought to give us your definition of a SB. I used to think that the BFM was the authority in defining our cooperation as SB. I am sadly seeing that there are those who are not content with it. To them it needs help.
Amen to theology for youth!
We spent some time with my high school senior niece this past week and caught up with what's going on in her life. She comes from a family with no interest in God, and with a lot of problems. She came to Christ a few years ago and has been attending a Reformed SBC Baptist church. She loves her pastors expository teaching, though she does mildy complain about being in the book of Psalms for over a year!
My wife gave me Grudem's Systematic Theology for Christmas and I joked with my niece that I should lend it to her. She was curious what was in the book and I brought up the first thing that came to mind: The Trinity. I mentioned in passing the error of modalism, and she laughed and told me she wanted to share something with me.
She pulled out her IPod and had me listen to a rap song. The dude was rapping about the Trinity! Interspersed in his rap was mixes of his pastor teaching about the Trinity, and the problem with modalism. This rapper is active in the college and career group at her church.
Hats of to this pastor and this church (First Baptist, St. Peters, MO) for teaching theology instead of a works based, "do more stuff faster" belief system.
Now if I can just get my adult Sunday School class excited about theology...
Baylor: If what you say is true, and I have yet to see these so called tired ministers that are spoken of, it is based on rumors and nothing else.
I keep thinking of how God has worked through a minority on anything. Israel, David and Goliath, the apostle Paul, the new church, the reformation etc. So numbers and majorities thrill me, because God seems to work through minorities more than majorities. :)
That's a great blog article Brad,(Sorry I am so late, Christmas, surfing and all)
You said " I encourage all student pastors to take their students through a systematic theology curriculum. I say this as one who has done so. (Relying heavily on Millard Erickson’s Christian Theology I developed a curriculum which I used, to teach both youth and adults systematic theology. The youth had many more questions and were far more engaged.)"
I am going to ask the question every pastor and youth leader would like to know....
Is it possible to post this curriculum as a zip file here so we may download it?
Many thanks,
Steve
I completely agree that our churches are week on theology and it is certainly important to teach our young people to "know what it is you believe and why you believe it." My question then is what if not everyone in the church agrees on what we believe on certain issues? For instance I know enough about Wayne Grudem to know that I disagree with much of what he writes. Have I wrongly concluded that when I see the phrase Systemic Theology that it really is another way to say Calvinism? It seems like everything going by the title Systemic theology is Calvinistic in nature. What if I am a non Calvinist at a church and some of the leaders are Calvinist and some aren't and I really don't want my children to be taught Calvinism? I pray I've stayed on topic and not offended anyone. Thank you for any responses.
Brad,
Since you have control of what is posted, have you noticed your warnings to avoid personal attacks have been ignored.
Case in point:
1. Baylor Grad: “Good luck getting a straight answer out of Wade. Normally he only does drive by’s on the site and never really answers difficult questions. I have found him to be evasive and elusive at best. Stir the pot and run mentality.”
2. You say, Gentleman, let’s stick to the issues and avoid personal attacks.”
3. Wade tells you, “Thanks for your encouragement to keep things civil.”
4. Baylor Grad: “Wade…realizes that he is losing his following. That is why he makes unsubstantiated allegations against Brad and others…Most likely a year from now no one will remember all of this anyway. The response will be Wade WHO?
5. You say to Baylor Grad: “I will not publish another comment like the one you just wrote.”
6. Baylor Grad: “My comment of “Wade WHO?” was motivated from a pastor meeting two weeks ago and hearing several pastors who believed in Wade six months ago, but now see he has a political agenda, and are sick of the rhetoric.”
Brad, in a court of law, what Baylor Grad said would not be allowed because it contains nothing but slander and hearsay.
Every comment Baylor Grad made was worse than the one before. You warned him on his first two. Was that the equivalent of Pilot washing his hands?
Since the Bible says not to report a crime makes a person just as guilty, how much worse is aiding in a crime?
Rex Ray
Mr. Anonymous Baylor Grad.
Your appology (sic) is accepted.
:)
Dr. Reynolds,
I think you are offering a superb setting to whittle out some of these issues we seem to be facing as SBs--some issues of which, I must admit, I had no clue we even faced.
What saddens me is, that the questions that persistently continue from those who obviously disagree with your position, are rapidly degenerating into sort of a "who made God" type approach.
Perhaps it is indicative that questions of substance are running low. I trust your evening well. With that, I am...
Peter
We should all keep Dr. Mohler in our prayers as he recovers from surgery. I am sure he would remind us that God both sovereign and good and is constantly at work in the lives of his children.
Peter
Good point
Grosey
I will work on that...could you e-mail me and remind me and I will get it up so others can access it.
Selah,
I am hoving no problems like that.
To All
I am not responding right now. I think ya'll will understand.
I have a new baby boy as of yesterday!!!!!!!!!
9lb 2oz Kelton Isaiah was born yesterday at 4:15pm
So I will continue to post your comments but will not be responding quite as regular. It has nothing to do with the value or insight of your comments but just I want to sepnd time with mom and baby.
BR
Congratulations Brad. What a way to end the New Year.
Brother Brad,
Congratulations!!!!
Oh, 9 lbs? I am praying for your wife. Let her rest!
Blessings,
Tim
Brad,
I made the following comment on Wade’s blog, and since you don’t comment on his blog, I thought you might defend or explain yourself if I made the same comment on yours.
The topic would be how upright influential men on the blog could use ‘straw’ men to say something they would not say otherwise.
Wade,
You wrote: “Anyone who writes anonymously has something to hide, lose, or is fearful of the accountability a known identity brings.”
Many years ago, my school teacher father with his school kids made a ‘straw man’ for ‘fun’. They propped the straw man against posts on porches of farmers and yelled: “Hello!”
They chose dark nights, and since there wasn’t any electricity, the farmers thought it was a real man.
Within a few yards of me is a house where the farmer yelled, “When I come back with my shotgun, you WILL talk to me!”
“BAMB!”
Holding the shotgun by the barrel, the farmer hit the straw man and broke the handle off against a post. (I don’t know if the farmer lived long enough to think it was funny or not.)
‘Anonymous’ can be a real person or a ‘straw’ person. Either one can build themselves up as smart and well educated; such as a missionary, college graduate, etc.
Wade, you’ve probably heard, “Once a thief—always a thief.” Do you remember a certain person complaining to you about me slandering him? You said you would delete the comment if he would show you were. He made no reply since I had slandered an anonymous missionary.
Some ‘thieves’ keep the same pattern. How many missionaries have made a comment showing an in-depth knowledge of the BFM and have expressed an overflowing gratitude for it?—ONE
Of the thousands of comments made, how many have signed as a Baylor graduate or any college graduate?—ONE
And both of them occurred around the same person. Quite a coincidence—huh?
If that is correct, think of the cunning, deceit, and fun he had bawling himself out.
I’m sorry if I’m wrong, but not too much because that person posted the slanderous comments against you.
Rex Ray
WOW congrats there Brad,
Every Blessing on you, your lvoely wife and new family,
Steve
Rex,
My friend if you are trying to imply in any way that I know of or have anything to do with Baylor grads or any other anonymous comments you are badly mistaking. Anyone who knows me knows you are wrong about me. I sign EVERYTHING I write and own up to all I say.
Ask CB, Ask Ben Cole, ask anyone who knows me. While I have numerous weaknesses, integrity is not one of them.
In fact, when others have accused me of such foolishness, like not posting comments, or claiming something wrongly, they have been silenced by evidence.
I do allow anonymous comments here...but have expressed my disapproval of them also. I think people should own up to there comments.
Your insinuation is not just ill-recieved, but it fits well into the fallacious conspiracy mode that many are in these days.
I allow comments on here and have reproved those even when they speak ill of some I disagree with...I have documented where I have not recieved the same courtesy on other blogs.
Further, while you may get upset at name-calling let us remind ourselves of some things. Like when I was called a legalist and your voice wasn't sounded or when I was falsely called a Landmarker and again you were silent. It appears you only get upset when one side or group is called names or personally attacked.
Here at this blog we display our unapproval when anyone is spoken ill of...we desire to speak to the issues.
Hope this clears things up for you.
I post all comments (unless they are really bad and then I ask people to reword them) and they have been very tame (for the blog world) but I do encourage others to get back to the issues when I feel they are getting personal.
BR
Debbie, Tim and Grosey
Thank you very much:)
It is amazing...a good friend of mine just e-mailed and said "when you first hold your son you become a great lover, a ready sacrifice, and a potential killer all at once." And further, we can "understand the atonement in ways" we cannot grasp by any other means.
He's right. It is Amazing
BR
Brad! HOW ABSOLUTELY WONDERFUL! He's here! Isn't he the most precious thing you've ever seen? Doesn't your heart just well up with gratitude and praise to our Father--our Creator? Don't ya just love Jeremiah 1:5 ?
Oh, the Lord is sooooo good! What a way to begin the new year! Such expectancy--so many firsts--so many beginnings--so many joys! Awh, and so many diapers! Where do we send gifts? God bless you and your lovely wife. I know she is lovely...I just know.
May the Lord grant Kelton wisdom to walk completely in His ways. May He learn God's precepts and follow all His commandments. May he grow in wisdom and knowledge as did our Savior. May the Words he heard as he grew in the womb be the Words he lives by his entire life. May God grant him good health and abiding protection.
May you be comforted in the knowledge that all you do and say will bring glory to God and set the best example of a father that any man could be. May you always show Kelton the tenderness that you show him this day. May he always see the love in your eyes that you pour forth now. May you remember this moment forever and always be as merciful with Kelton's needs tomorrow as you are with his innocent cries for affection today.
May your wife be granted every ounce of patience, wisdom and understanding of this wee one as he continues to grow. And may every moment with him be locked up tight in her memory bank so she will always cherish time with him in days ahead. May she be the example to him, not just as a mom, but as the first wife he will want to find as his own someday. All this I ask in Christ's Holy name. Amen. SelahV
Selahv,
Thank you soo much.
I oft wonder where the line is between sharing my thoughts, for anyone who desires to read, and guarding my family.
God knows my heart and I think He protects my innocent trust of people, and my desire to glorify Him, and so let me share:)
My wife was nothing short of incredible. Her first baby, a 9lb 2oz boy delivered all natural. I got very emotional when I saw him and I think it was a combination of admiration for my wife and her strength, which I desire, and amazement at Kelton.
Kelton heard the entire Bible while in the womb, and he has begun to hear it again.
May God mold him into a mighty man of God, in spite of his fathers ignorance in child-rearing.
BR
Brad,
Ah, we cross swords again. Like old times huh? Let’s see, in a court of law, a person is innocence until proven guilty. But this is not a court of law and that’s one of the dangers of blogs. That’s why I don’t like slander, and I appreciate it being kept off.
The question arises, then why am I critical of what I think you’ve done? Slander is falsehood being told of another. I am trying to speak truth which is not slander.
Before I begin, I’ll explain why I did not stand up for you when you were called a Landmarker and a legalist. Your words imply that I heard you called those words. Can you show a comment from me that would prove I did hear them?
I don’t remember hearing you called either one since I hardly read your blog until Wade shut his down for 40 days.
BTW, you’ve had some good subjects, and I’ve learned a lot. (Would you reply to my last comment on baptism written a week ago?)
Another reason if I had heard you called a Landmarker, I wouldn’t have said anything because I don’t know what a Landmarker is. (Yes, I’m real dumb in some areas.)
If I had heard you called a ‘legalists’, I wouldn’t have defended you because I believe you are one. My belief is based on your defense of the BFM 2000, being against missionary applicants with a PPL and those not qualifying in the legalistic rules of baptism, being against the BGCT, BWA, and the CBF.
SO, here’s the CASE: What does each of us have to lose? You have more at stake than I. You mentioned “integrity”, and all I have to lose is being a good detective.
Here are some facts:
1. Your reply starts, “My friend…” Is that integrity? Reminds me of elders telling Paul, “Dear brother…” and their suggestion and not “standing for him” (testifying) at his trial put him in prison the rest of his life.
2. You told College Grad., “I will not publish another comment like the one you just wrote.” Its true College Grad’s next comment was not like the one he just wrote, it was worse, but were did integrity go?
You said, “I sign EVERTHING I write and own up to all I say.”
I’d like to go back to May 8 and May 9, and prove you posed as an IMB missionary by your ‘oops confession’. If you can explain how this happened, and I am wrong, I will admit I’m wrong and will apologize. Not many will do that; I remember Wade and me doing it. In a way, I hope you can because we are brothers and I’d like to think of you as a man of your word. I really mean that Brad—I don’t mind apologizing; besides I’m too old to be a detective anyway.
On Wade’s post of May 8, your comment read, “Rex, we will certainly agree to disagree in nearly all parts.”
I replied the same day, “Brad…That sounds like I have asked you (which I haven’t) and the mouse in your pocket to agree to disagree.”
I realize now I didn’t state that very well, Since I didn’t ask you to agree to disagree, you should have said, “I will agree…” By you using the word “we”, I implied you must have had a mouse in you pocket.
On Wade’s post of May 9, there were 4 ‘anonymous’ comments that were unknown. The first 3 challenged Brad:
1. “Brad, wasn’t the same thing done to the missionaries that were required to sign the BF&M 2000 Document or be fired?
2. “Is this Brad Reynolds’ blog, or Grace and Truth to you by Wade Burleson?
3. “I think it is ridiculous to expect a person to sign the BF&M Y2K…”
Why did anonymous change the wording of the BFM? This is important. He changed it some but not exactly after Brad wrote, “Wade, do you agree with the BFM2K?”
Is anonymous #4 the same guy? He writes: “Wade, We’re all waiting. Can you answer Brad’s last questions concerning your thoughts on the BFM2K and the signing of it by IMB missionaries?”
This guy is on Brad’s side. He even spelled BFM2K just like Brad. Where has he been for 4 days?
This adds to the pressure Brad has put on Wade. What are the chances of a missionary praising the BFM on the next comment? After more than a 100 were forced off the field and 16 were fired for refusing to sign it, I say the chances were pretty slim. I never read on blogs of missionaries praising the BFM except this one which read:
“This IMB M was proud to sign the BFM2K! Not only does it set Jesus apart as the one and only, but it also addresses the importance of family (the building blocks of healthy communities) and it puts to rest the issue of women pastors.”
Wow, this person knew the BFM inside and out to be able to summarize it so briefly in such detail. It sure wasn’t one of those missionaries that have such a love for the lost they just sign anything to keep God’s call. One asked me if he just preached the Gospel, would he be a conservative or a moderate. He was serious. Hey! Look, the missionary spelled the BFM just like Brad.
The last thing is the ‘oops confession’:
I wrote in part:
To anonymous,
You write, “We’re all waiting.”
This “We” business was written to me on another post and I indicated he had a mouse in his pocket. I think this ‘anonymous’ has a mouse and it may be the same mouse.
The next comment just happens to be from an IMB missionary praising the BFM 2000. (That mouse is starting to smell like a rat.)
Brad wrote in part:
“Rex,
As a heads up, you may get a call soon from one of the thirty signers of the Memphis Declaration; I take them at their word and think they may see your references to me being a mouse or rat…”
Wade wrote:
“Brad,
Where are you called these things? I would be happy to delete the comment. I’m sorry if it slipped through.”
Brad, you never replied to Wade’s question.
Would you like to reply now?
Of course it’s up to you if this comment goes on your blog. But if not here—maybe on Wade’s as it is automatic.
Rex Ray
Rex
Feel free to ask Wade if the anonymous comments came from me. He has some sort of tracker. But I can tell you the answer...NO!!!
Like I said, I sign all my comments and have signed them all!!!
Other than your own conspiracy-theory riddled mind, your accusations have no foundation and are ill-recieved. The fact that some people actually agree with me and refer to the BFM2K as the BFM2K (like me) is not evidence.
Now, while you may feel free to attack the person's and not deal with issues on other blogs we try not to do that here...so if you continue to attack the person I will be suggesting you re-write comments. I will tell you like I tell others here, attacking personalities is not welcome and does not help your case.
I can attest before my God and Father, and only judge, I have never posted under anyone except Brad Reynolds, in any comment string. You are forgiven for implying otherwise on any and all blogs where you have done so.
In some ways I find it humorous that one who said, "innerancy came from the lips of the devil" is now trying to reprove me.
Anyway, you are always welcome here, but as I have told those who have attacked others...Let's stick to the issues.
Name-calling like "legalists" or "landmarker" is also not welcome here. Name-calling doesn't help the discussion of issues. Unlike other blogs who allow such, we try to discourage it here.
BR
Rex
One final note. Your scenario reminds me of some of those who are accusing the SBC of having king-makers. They give great scenarios of what could happen and draw on common circumstances as circumstancial evidence but provide no real evidence. I know we have some influential men in the SBC, and have always (Dr. Criswell, Dr. Rogers, Dr. Patterson, Judge Pressler, etc) but that does not make them king-makers.
I have no illision that I will convince you, for once an individual has a conspiracy-theory in his mind, everything he sees is evidence for it. (There seems to be alot of conspiracy theorists running around the SBC on blogs)
But the Lord knows and those who know me, even the ones who disagree, know I do not like anonymous comments and always sign my name. I even tell my students if they recieve an anonymous note, throw it away, don't even read it. If someone doesn't have the guts to sign their name to it then they must not believe it to much. And yet, I allow anonymous comments because I know some M's desire to protect their identity (and I understand this).
Anyone, who has read me for any length of time knows your scenario is not me. Further, I trust when people sign their name as someone. They may be pulling my leg, but I trust them because I think that is what Christians should do, rather than develop some sort of theory in their mind.
BR
To All,
Everyone is doing well. We go home today. Kelton and I watched the Longhorns play and WIN last night. He can almost give the "hook em horns" sign:)
BR
rex,
i believe you read wade's blogs on a regular basis...do you not? wade is the one who called brad a landmarker, and people on wade's blog called brad a legalist.
also, maybe brad needs to know something else about you. you believe that the bible is full of errors and contradictions. that says a lot.
btw, rex, i dont hate you. i am not trying to be mean to you. i am not trying to hurt you. i am just stating the facts for brad, so that he might understand where you are coming from.
from irenic volfan007
Rex,
I am at a disadvantage here due to not knowing the complete sub-thread. I did see Brad defending himself as never using any name to comment other than his own.
If the charge is that he did, I must say he has never done that and never would.
I have many times:-). All the RICA FAMILY are my personal friends, as most all know.
Brad is different about such things. I have known him along time and if he makes a statement, good or bad, he will give it his name and let it stand. Brad is no coward, not now, not ever.
Brad,
I have never listed the names of King-Makers. I do know they exist, and I put my name at the end of that statement.
God bless you, April and that "BIG BOY":-)
cb
Dr. Reynolds,
Interesting, the last exchange. I better make note, however. I may be the next one suspiciously regarded as the writer of those anonymous notes.
After all, I have used BFM, BF&M, BF&M2000, BF&MY2K all synonomously--and many times in the very same thread!
I am glad you and your family are well. With that, I am...
Peter
Peter
Thanks...all is well here.
CB
Congratulations are in order for you also.
You became a Grandfather on the same day I became a father. Met your son, he likes a lot like his daddy, poor boy:)
Didn't get to see your grandson but I'm happy for you.
BR
Peter,
Ah—the guilty returns to the scene of the crime—so you’re the one. HA
Since you found the “last exchange’ interesting, and made the last comment, I’ll ask you if you know this rule in geometry.
Two things equal to the same thing, are equal to each other.
That is: A = C and B = C, then A = B
Let’s apply that to the “last exchange.”
Anonymous = “Rat”
Brad = “Rat”
Brad = Anonymous
“Just a simple deduction, Watson.”
I’m willing to learn from an explanation other than “Trust me.”
Rex Ray
Brother Brad,
I have emailed you. Did you get it?
Blessings,
Tim
CB Scott,
I liked your Dec 31 comment to Volfan on Wade’s post of Dec 29. It shows you are a person that is fair to both sides. It’s true what you said, “Our problem was and our problem still is the sin which lurks in the hearts of men.”
I’m writing you since you’re next in line from the bottom of comments to me. Peter was first, you, Volfan, and then Brad in that order.
I believe you might have advised Richard Nixon NOT to say “I’m not a crook”, but to admit his faults and the American people would have forgiven him and he would have remained in office. Usually the cover up is always worse than the crime.
I admire your loyalty to Brad, and hope you are right. I just want some good answers.
Why does Brad tell me, “Feel free to ask Wade if the anonymous comments came from me. He has some sort of tracker”?
Why didn’t he ask Wade to prove me wrong, and we could skip all this picky—picky debate? Is there such a thing as a “tracker”?
Rex Ray
Volfan,
Ah, the writer who paints with a 3 foot brush. You write in generalities that you conclude without quoting what was actually said. For instance you say, “Wade is the one who called Brad a Landmarker.”
Do you want me to trust your conclusion? Why didn’t you give the date etc and the words Wade actually said in quotes?
Did you not understand my explanation of why I don’t recall Brad being called a Landmarker? And yes, I read Wade’s blog about every day, but that doesn’t mean I recall everything that was said—give me some slack—I’m 74. Besides I still don’t know what a Landmarker is. I don’t know what a lot of ‘terms’ mean. It took me years to understand a ‘conservative’ in religion is the opposite of a ‘conservative’ in politics since Webster says the word has a resistance to change.
You wrote, “Brad needs to know…you believe that the Bible is full of errors and contradictions. That says a lot.”
See how you paint with a sweeping brush with YOUR conclusions?
Why didn’t you tell Brad you didn’t answer my question (as usually) on Wade’s post of Dec 20? I wrote on Dec 28: “Will you agree the Bible contains the inerrant Word of God? I do.”
I asked you to take a True—False test, but you did not. It was:
1. The lies of the devil are in the Bible.
2. The lies of men are in the Bible.
3. The ignorance of men is in the Bible.
4. The stupidity of men is in the Bible.
5. All words in the Bible are NOT from the mouth of God.
6. All words in the Bible are not inerrant.
Volfan, these true statements are why our BFM has: “We believe the Bible has…truth, without any mixture of error for its matter.” The word “mixture” means the truth of the Bible is true and the untruth of the Bible is untrue. That is why the Holy Spirit is needed to “properly DIVIDE the Word of Truth.”
I agree with you Volfan--just state the facts. I wish you would take your advice.
Rex Ray
Brad,
Will you ask Wade to state the identity of ‘anonymous’ of May 12 on his May 9 post was NOT you? You said Wade could do this.
Then I wouldn’t believe the evidence I have stated, and you wouldn’t have to get on me for “attacking personalities”, and hinting that I’m a conspiracy theorist as you stated: “(There seems to be a lot of conspiracy theorist running around the SBC on blogs.)”
If you recall, this started with me trying to expose slander that was on your post from anonymous comments that you were responsible for posting.
Rex Ray
Brad,
Congratulations to you and April on the birth of your son (James 1:17). God bless!!!
In Christ,
JLG
Rex
Feel free to chase your imagined rabbit all you want, but please do it elsewhere.
Everyone who knows me and knows this blog, knows your imagining things. I really don't have the time to trace back to through numerous comments to explain things to you.
I have stated before my God and Father that I have not posted under any other name than Brad Reynolds. That settles it as far as God and I am concerned.
Believe what you wish. Feel free to ask Wade, feel free to pursue this as much as you desire...but you will arrive at the truth I've already told you.
Perhaps I shouldn't let people say things like "legalists" and "lanmarkists" and other attacks on people but I have allowed it and find it interesting you don't like some attacks but then start other attacks.
Let's try and stich to the issues here.
Have a happy New Year
BR
Selah
I will pray for them:)
Tim
Got your e-mail and sent one back.
I had not seen the blog until you mentioned it. As a side note it appears that the blog actually fulfilled my prediction in trying to deny it
I really have no desire to respond to it. But will try and stick to issues rather than personalities or conspiracy theories.
God bless my brother
BR
JLG
Thank you my brother
BR
Rex,
I am trying to learn to be fair. I have not always pursued that course. Therefore, I thank you.
I want to be more loyal to truth than to Brad or even myself in my latter days. It is hard to be truthful with myself at times for I am a prideful man.
It is easier to be truthful about Brad and though I like Brad and owe him as a man for his character under fire, I will not substitute loyalty for truthfulness again in my life if God grants me grace.
Brad is no liar. I have pushed him as hard as any at times. He has not lied to me, ever.
I cannot say that of all of whom he works with, for there are some great liars there, but Brad is not one of them.
If Brad says he did not comment as anyone other than Brad Reynolds I will stand with him on his word alone. His word really is that solid.
I am not saying Brad is never wrong. He is wrong on some things as are we all, but with Brad, he really believes he is right or he would not stand on the position as he does.
That is not true with all. Many in our "ranks" speak that which is wrong with full knowledge that they are wrong. They are willful liars and lying has served them well in their careers as Southern Baptist, but it has yet to be seen how their lying serves them as Christians before God. That is in HIS Hands, not mine.
Brad is not one of those people of such character (or lack of chacter) within our ranks. He is no liar. If he was a liar, he would be so poor at it the whole world would see it immediately.
Brad has faults as do we, Rex, but being a lying, yellow, dog is not one of them. On that I will stand.
cb
Dear Rex Ray,
I couldn't remember a rule from geometry if my life depended upon it.
But, I fear no amount of logic can prove a proposition true, Rex Ray. Logic stands only as a negative test, not a postive one. I do remember that from Logic 101.
As far as the comments you are posting, my Brother, I am perplexed as to what you may think is being accomplished. Surely you cannot believe you are doing something valuable in Kingdom work, do you Rex Ray?
Grace tonight. With that, I am...
Peter
CB
Thanks for your words. But I must disagree in part. I know of no one I work with, who would compromise truth. I guess we shall disagree here.
But have a happy new year my brother.
BR
Brad,
You prove my point about you and I know you well enough to know exactly how you would respond to my comment.
I wrote down how I believed you would respond. Check the similarites:
CB, thank you brother for your trust in me, but I cannot support what you say about "others".
Am I not in the ball park?
Rex,
I know this guy. His response to me is exactly what he believes with all his heart. He is no liar.
If I had just saved his family from "slavers" and got shot bad for my efforts he would still answer in the exact same way.
He would give me his house and car with gladness for what I had done. He would pay my hospital bills. He would stand at the door of my hospital room and protect me with his life against any that came for vengence against me for freeing his family.
BUT, he would still respond to my comment on this thread the same exact way. That is what makes Brad, Brad and that is why I know he is no liar and that is why no matter what we disagree about, I trust his word.
cb
CB: would that you knew me and could see the same in me you see in Brad. I've been allowing the Lord to examine me (my new year's resolution for 2007...daily Heavenly Cat-scan of my thoughts, heart, body and soul). And to have someone stand for me the way you are standing for Brad warms my heart and fills my soul with song.
I've only been reading Brad's blog since October. I'd have to go back in his archives to read some of the threads which seem to be "the burr beneath the saddle" to a few disgruntled folk. But don't think it is worthy of valuable time the Lord has alloted me. However, CB, I am grateful for your comments here regarding the integrity of Brad's word on how he signs his blogs. Not because I care one whit how he signs his blogs, but because you know him well enough to state the truth of his word in how he signs his blogs.
Your validation and defense of him has served to further punctuate my own belief in the kind of person who writes his take on doctrinal issues. I really like the gracious man behind Guardian-Ministries and would feel priviledged to have him as a pastor here in Oklahoma, where he could be closer to his longhorns.
But his blog is a satisfying second to that. And so I wish him well. I pray good health on his lovely April and his precious Kelton. I pray for great rest upon Brad as he seeks to balance his family, church, and work.
May the Lord allow him to continue to feed our minds and stir our souls in days ahead. And may your engagement of conversations be ever-present in the threads. NOW, I will read you a bit more closely, CB. For integrity begets integrity. My pastor said in a sermon based on Job 27: 5-6, that "if you have integrity, nothing else matters; but if you don't have integrity, nothing else matters."
For this reason, Brad's blog is worth the read. And some commenters are not worth a response. God bless you all in the coming year. SelahV
Brad,
Congratulations on the new born baby!
Lew
I think somewhere in here there once was a topic...;)
I noticed Mary questioned whether the term "systematic theology" was roughly equivalent to Calvinism. I don't know that anyone answered that question.
Systematic theology is much too broad to be solely Calvinistic. It's just orthodox doctrine organized in a systematic way from scripture. All (OK, maybe most!) orthodox believers agree in the doctrines of the Trinity, deity of Christ, authority of scripture, etc.
Soteriology is just one aspect of Grudem's book. If you and your church prefer a different view on those particulars, try Norman Geislar.
Lew
Thanks Brother. Have a Happy New Year.
BR
Mike
Thanks for the return to the issue. You are right I never got around to answering some questions that were made while my wife labored. But you answered it brilliantly.
I would add that Dr. Erickson is a tad more calvinistic than I in some points, but not enough to really matter.
It is interesting that he is a Baptist theologian; and is a modified Calvinists.
BR
Sister SelahV,
You have stated something about Brother CB that I have known for years. I would go with him to Disney World for an evangelistic trip during Gay Days. We may disagree over the color of hats we would wear, but I would know when we got there the gospel would be presented and it would be presented with integrity.
He has a backbone of a gladiator, the hide of an aligator, wrapped around the heart and mind of Christ.
Blessings,
Tim
CB,
You speak words of wisdom that just about convinces me I’m wrong on Brad not posting as anonymous or being a liar. (A liar is one who knows he is telling an untruth.) On the other hand when one conveys an untruth through ignorance or whatever, he is not a liar but unknowledgeable. This may have happened to all of us just as my accusing Brad of commenting as anonymous
You wrote of Brad: “He has not lied to me, ever. I cannot say that of all of whom he works with, for there are some great liars there, but Brad is not one of them.”
Brad’s response: “Thanks for your words. But I know of no one I work with, who would compromise truth. I guess we shall disagree here.”
I’m sure you believe you told the truth, so it’s amazing how his response portrayed to you that he responded in truth. I guess you figured his response was based on not knowing.
Jesus did not speak from knowledge when he told his disciples his Father would not forsake him at Calvary. (John 16:32) “My God, my God, why have You forsaken Me?” proves that God hid from his Son the terrible truth that would burst his heart.
I’ve always looked for truth—in the Bible or elsewhere; just like the lady who spoke of Brad’s baby boy, should have omitted “first” when she wrote, “May she [Brad’s wife] be the example to him…as the first wife he will want…” She didn’t mean what the words said.
Wade didn’t mean what he wrote on May 3, “Today I am extremely grateful to be a follower of Jesus Christ who also happens to be a Southern Baptist.” When I corrected him, I got jumped on by more than a dozen people and even called an idiot.
Are people truthful when fair questions are asked and they won’t answer because their answers may prove them wrong? I’ve asked Brad to reply to the last comment on his baptism post which is mine, but he has not. I wish someone would answer the True-False test I asked of Volfan.
Brad likes to quote me saying, “Inerrancy came from the lips of the devil.” (That’s not the way I said it, but close enough.) The devil loves confusion, and that word has enough confusion that thousands of churches and the BFM won’t accept it. It’s a shame Brad has not tried to teach what it means on his blog. I believe in a debate he has nothing to gain and everything to lose with the 8 definitions of inerrancy and the 12 qualifications that go with the Chicago or ‘strict’ definition. But that is not on topic, but the question arises, how are youth to be taught theology when teachers can’t agree?
Peter you are so correct in asking what is being accomplished for the Lord. It’s about like the 12 barrels of whiskey vs. a church fight that Adrian Rogers mentioned. It’s like two kids arguing who started the fuss. I say I have facts, you say I have a proposition, and Brad says I have an imagination.
My, my, there’s even a new slander word that has arisen—“conspiracy theorist.” Is that worse than a moderate?
Maybe something will be accomplished for the Lord if people learn of Valley Fever. My brother got this disease that attacks the lungs by breathing a fungus in the air. They moved to a new home in Arizona, less than 3 months ago where there was dust from construction. There have been 5,000 cases reported in the last year in Arizona. He has been sick two months. He can only say two words at a time from weakness and can hardly walk across the room. There is no medicine to take other than something to help a person sleep. It takes 6 months to a year to get over it. About 1% die.
The first web site is Mayo Clinic and the second tells of 40 million dollars from Congress to test for a vaccine.
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/valley-fever/DS00695/DSECTION=3
http://www.azcentral.com/php-bin/clicktrack/print.php?referer=http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/opinions/articles/1229fri1-29.html
Rex Ray
rex ray: so pull out my ill-worded prayer for Kelton and stick it in the reader's digest of idiotic things women say that they didn't mean to say in the way they said it.
Glad I was able to give you an analogy to be used for NOTHING. I do that quite often. Say something that means something and it's used to explain nothing for no one to understand or anyone to care. But then there are always a few folks who like to sit around and pick specks out of others eyes.
I saw a chimpanzee doing that at the zoo one time. It was hilarious. When he finally got it out of the other chimps eye, he ate it. Isn't that funny? Now that would be a wise thing for folks to do who are bent on picking out specks from other's eyes. Instead of picking it out and slapping it on a glass slide and sticking it beneath a microscope and projecting it on a screen for all the world to view---they could just pop that booger in their mouth and swallow hard. But before they swallow, they could bless the giver of that speck and pray God bless them far more than themselves.
Now that your points have been made on Brad's character and no one seems to agree, can you give it a rest?
I pray your brother's health improves quickly. selahV
If Webster’s ever decides to define the term "Post Hijacking" all they would have to do is write: "see 'Theology and Youth" on Brad Reynold's blog."
Anyone interested in a meaningful discussion on Youth Ministry?
Q. In the history of the church, has there ever been a time when we have spent more money, time and effort at reaching & discipling teenagers as we are now?
Q. In the history of the church, have we ever done as poorly as we are now at passing our faith on to future generations?
My guess at both answers is no. I am ready to be corrected if my perceptions and limited view of history are incorrect. However, if I am right, why are we failing so miserably when we are trying so hard?
Very interested to hear everyones thoughts on this.
Joy,
Cliff
Matt
Thank You
Cliff,
Excellent questions...I may borrow them for an upcoming post with your permission.
BR
mbq,
when you mentioned dexter baptist church, were you referring to dexter, mo by any chance?
volfan007
Permission Granted.
They were the "attention getter" of a sermon I preached last year for our church that we called "The State Of the Family Address." I of course, used Deut 6 as the text.
I'm genuinely interested in hearing from others on this if someone is interested in dialogue!
BTW: going along with the theme of the original post; our ski retreat weekend is next week. The theme is “The Beauty of the Gospel.” The titles of the three main sermons by our guest speaker are:
The depravity of Man and the Love of God
Justification and imputation
Progressive Sanctification; evidence of the new birth
Theological enough for you? LOL I told my preacher that I only want 2 things from him. 1. Use the theological terms, but make sure you explain them. 2. Make it hard for me to figure out you are a “Calvinist.” I have no doubt he will do both very well. (Maybe we could call it a PSL; Private Sovereignty Language!)
Joy,
Cliff
MBQ
Thanks for the heads up on that article! Spot on!
Joy,
Cliff
Cliff4JC: I'm interested in a meaningful discussion on youth ministry. To your questions, I'll venture an answer.
Since 1976 my main ministry in every church has been working with youth. They seem to gravitate towards me. I've been youth director for all of them. From those youth groups, I've seen full-time ministers in every field of ministry--deaf interpreters, music evangelists, preachers, deacons, S.S. teachers, youth ministers, professors of ministry to college students and so much more.
Every church my husband and I ministered in has numbered between 130 in Sun. Sch. to 276 in S.S. Each church we went to had no youth group or youth ministry. When we left the churches they searched and called ministers for their youth.
I wonder how large your church is. And if you feel the problem may exist mostly in the larger/mega churches.
I don't know how many churches are dealing with these problems. But I think the majority of churches in SBC are smaller or medium churches. I'd like to know what they think about those questions. I couldn't say enough about how wonderful the youth I've worked with in the past are. They love the Lord, they love others and want to do things to reach others for Christ. And ARE.
Keep putting these youth in services all their own. Keep setting them apart instead of making them a part of the church. And we'll reap what we are sowing, young adults who want no part of a church that wants to keep them parted from themselves because they have pink hair and twelve earrings in their ears.
If there were more leaders who loved these kids and wanted to do more than entertain them, there are ways it could be done. And it wouldn't cost much more than a Bible and some youth workers' time.
I still correspond with the youth I once taught, and they are strong Christians...growing in the Lord and reaching others. They are volunteers in their churches and work as school teachers, nurses, accountants and factory workers.
Don't know too much about SB history other than the nearly 30 years I've been part of the history. But that is my "bite-sized chewy" on the subject at the moment until Brad writes a new blog. So, yeah, I'd like a meaningful dialog on youth ministry, too. We could keep this thread going and maybe keep it on topic. Thanks for your questions. SelahV
Brad: Getting any sleep yet?
Selahv,
I didn’t know I would hurt your feelings by pointing out one part of your sincere prayer was funny, but at the time; I thought the Lord himself might have smiled.
Since then, I’ve read your blog and thought maybe you considered me as your mother-in-law whacking your knuckles for breaking green beans the wrong way. I will be more thoughtful from now on. Thank you for praying for my brother.
And yes, I’ve finished criticizing Brad if he keeps his word he won’t allow slander. All he has to do is say, “Sorry Mr. X, I’m not posting your comment because all of it is not on topic.” He is responsible for everything on his blog. People seem to forget that. If it’s highjacked it’s his fault. If this comment of mine is posted, it’s because he did it.
Rex Ray
Selahv,
I might add that Brad lets people wander off the subject when it’s good. Many people said my father did his best preaching when he got off his subject. Sometimes the Holy Spirit leads away from the ‘three points.” That happens also in Sunday school. What is close to people’s heart is what they want to discuss, and to shut them up because it’s not on the lesson is far from Baptist practices.
Also I remember a sermon on “What comes out when a person is ‘squeezed’?” This preacher was athletic and strong. He was on a crusade in Brazil. There, the missionary, after years of waiting had gotten a new car. A large truck passed and pulled in too quick…smashed his fender and hooked the bumper. They were pulled down the highway a long ways before the truck stopped. Two big angry guys jumped out. The preacher was thinking, “If he could get in the first punch on the largest, he could handle the other one. The small missionary yelled at the big guys, “This man has come all the way from America to tell you about Jesus.” The two accepted Christ.
His point was, when a Christian is squeezed, Jesus should come out. So many of us fail.
Rex Ray
Selah
Thanks for your words.
Rex
Unlike some other bloggers, we provide an open forum here. Some may get upset that this blog is the freemarketplace of ideas, but truth never needs to run, so I allow any to posts and I don't selectively or subjectively refuse to posts comments when they don't agree with me, or when they do agree with me, but are less kind than I would be.
Like any other "open" forum, I will administrate it, but with much freedom. If someone wants to be less than wise than I will allow them to show themselves (within reason) for all to see.
Were this an editorial format rather than a forum format you would be quite correct; but to hold the administrator of a forum to the same standard as an editor is to either demonstrate ignorance of the difference between the two, or to be simply be contrary.
Responsibility is a two-edged sword my friend and if you provide a forum that is supposedly open for discussion then it is deceptive to only allow certain views or to hold others to your percieved standard of "good" comments. To do so, amounts to an editorial rather than a forum. I have chosen to provide a forum.
I do ask all to be kind and usually have to remind some (of which you have not been exempt:)
I do also refuse to post really bad comments but I always allow them to reword it.
You are welcome to e-mail me the slander you feel has happened on my blog but I feel you will probably be speaking of the comments I allow that speak harshly of me:)
BR
brad,
keep the blog an open forum. its great. dont listen to those who would have you delete what they dont like.
rex,
again, when are you gonna get off of brad's back. you're starting to get really heavy. lay off. think about something else.
volfan007
Rex: You said: "Selahv, I didn’t know I would hurt your feelings by pointing out one part of your sincere prayer was funny, but at the time; I thought the Lord himself might have smiled."
I'm sure the Lord smiled, Rex, but for an entirely different reason than an ill-phrased prayer. Unlike man, He looks on my heart.
And you didn't hurt my feelings. Not at all.
You seem to like to investigate and point out each and every jot and tittle that you discern as inconsistent, suspect, deceitful, or simply stupidly mis-stated. If that's what the Spirit has led you to do with your talents and gifts, then who am I to argue?
However, I would like to point out one tiny little error. You said you've been reading my blogs since I'm sure not everyone who reads Brad, reads SelahVToday. While I have written a few sentences regarding my mother-in-law, it was my stepmother who whacked my knuckles for what she considered improperly snapping greenbeans.
But by no means do I consider you as she, Rex; my stepmother was mentally ill. I make great allowances for the abuses I suffered at her hands as a child. So unless you pulled my ill-stated prayer out and used it to emphasize a point because you are mentally ill, I don't see your act anywhere close to synonymous with my dear departed stepmother.
Thoughtfulness becomes you.
Your welcome regarding your brother. I am still lifting him up. It is no fun to struggle for each and every breath. I've watched many people face that reality.
You also said: "And yes, I’ve finished criticizing Brad if he keeps his word he won’t allow slander."
You are quite the conditional person, Rex. "If"? "If"?
I'm glad I moderate my comments differently on my blogsite. Conditions on my site are to be kind. I'm afraid, Brad is a far more tolerant person than I. However, I do like the way he says he puts it all out there and lets the person's words speak for themselves. That brings to mind a Proverb from one of my favorite chapters in that book: "A man shall be commended according to his wisdom, but he who is of a perverse heart shall be despised."(12:8
I like the way Brad allows folks to express their "wisdom" in all ways even when it isn't on topic. It's when the "perverse of heart" begin rattling on and on about the host, rather than his topics that I find myself seeking a slop bucket.
You said in your second burst of commentary to me:
"Selahv,
I might add that Brad lets people wander off the subject when it’s good. Many people said my father did his best preaching when he got off his subject. Sometimes the Holy Spirit leads away from the ‘three points.” That happens also in Sunday school. What is close to people’s heart is what they want to discuss, and to shut them up because it’s not on the lesson is far from Baptist practices."
On the contrary, dear brother, getting off on rabbit trails regarding things of importance is not what I am referring to about staying on topic. I was commenting back to Cliff4JC regarding dialog regarding youth.
"Squeezing" people is, in my lowly opinion, for greeting visitors in church. (Or for professors in logic, philosophy, and theology) Words on or off topic should at least be edifying or encouraging, don't you think? "The tongue of the wise brings healing."(v.18b) NOT accusations,insults and criticism.
And since I'm off topic and know dear Brad is gonna go ahead and post my ramblings, let me add: "He who follows worthless pursuits is lacking in sense and without understanding."(v.11b) I believe that is referring to weighing every person's words on scales which cannot be balanced and chasing rabbits down black holes in the universe that lead to nowhere for no purpose but to follow the imaginary rabbit.
Just a few thoughts from selahV.
Selahv,
I’m sure the Lord laughed out loud wondering how a mother-in-law could whack her 8-year-old daughter-in-law.
I knew it was your stepmother but my brain must have been thinking about our preacher saying he picked up his mother-in-law’s antique rocking chair to the ceiling and smashed it to pieces on the floor. I asked my brother-in-law if it made any sense for a preacher to tell that on himself. He replied, “Not a bit of sense unless she was in it.”
I guess you’re right in me looking for mistakes; when my mother was 93, she introduced me as her son. The reply was, “Oh no, Mrs. Ray, you’re not that old.” When my father would have been 106, I was about to be introduced to a lady but she interrupted, “You don’t have to introduce me to Mr. Ray; I went to school with his twin sons, Hez and Rex.” I wanted to kill her, but I was laughing too hard.
Shelah, we share one thing together as your blog wrote, “My greatest desire is to write.”
My father, being a lover of literature, tried to teach my brother and me, “Romans, lend me your ears, or tomorrow the Tiber will run red with your blood!” Being as we were only 3, our response was, “Runny ears.”
But I guess some of it must have rubbed off as in my ‘picky-picky’ way I look for truth everywhere including the Bible. I printed 2,000 copies of the ‘Truth of Acts’ in 1994. (Most of them are in boxes.) I thought if Catholics believed this, they would become Baptist, but I can’t get Baptist to believe it. It was written without any knowledge of history. When my computer blew up, I lost it all. I studied history and found it agreed with my article. History does not contradict the Bible but it does contradict Baptist tradition.
I almost had my article rewritten, but nearly bled to death from a fall—was in the hospital 5 weeks and then more weeks in the hospital with blood clots in my lungs. I finished it Dec 2004. If you think I’m hard on Brad, you could write a book on how I interpret James.
You see, when two people argue, I figure one on them is wrong. But with you and me, we’re both right and wrong. Like that old saying, “If an argument does not end, there’s wrong on both sides” or something like that.
Thanks Brad for letting us old folks chew on each other. I hope that “old” doesn’t bring on a few more words.
Rex Ray
REX: OLD? nah, I love being called old. I've weathered alot to be 58. When I was 28, I shared my life story with my pastor and he said I'd lived 4 lifetimes in my short 28 years. He thought I should write a book. I'd already written several. Just never did anything with them.
I am actually quite jealous of folks older than I. They get their meals cheaper. LOL. But one of these days.....selahV
Bubba,
I’ll bet you have enjoyed your rest of ‘hibernation’. At least you had time to do other things. Do you remember that song “dreaming my life away”? My wife thinks I’m ‘blogging my life away’. I’m sure there are others with the same problem.
I’m glad to see your ‘picture’ again. It reminds me of the bear story I told on Wade’s blog of Jan 3. It is the last comment made. (Jan 6) The bear had a reason to be angry as through ignorance, he was shot 10 days before grizzle season opened. The bears had payback two years later in the same spot. It was a horror story as a wife (across the lake) watched her husband killed as he was fishing. It was two days before someone found them. The man was my brother’s tax accountant.
With that said, I don’t want to “come after” anyone whose name is Bear. A word of caution though—one of your favorite books, Trail of Blood, is on the conservative no—no list as it traces Baptist back to the first century and raises the question who wrote the three Johns…the Apostle John or the Elder John? I’ve bought over 100 of those books but have given my last copy away.
I’m learning the difference from an ‘editorial format’ vs. a ‘forum format’, but I’m a slow learner as I don’t see how someone can be advised to quit their job and still remain Christian friendly.
As far as “matching wits”, I heard a preacher warn his buddy not to come half prepared. I like the ‘color’ you bring to a conversation.
Rex Ray
Rex: I was going to let this slide by, but then I got to thinking someone might read your comment to me and think I agreed with you, so figure I better say I don't. Hee, hee.
You said, Rex: "You see, when two people argue, I figure one on [of]them is wrong." (brackets mine, correction mine. :) hee hee)
Me? I think that is a matter of perspective. From my perspective when two people argue respectfully--each seeing himself/herself as less than and at least no greater than the other--arguments can end with agreement that each is entitled to their own opinion. But sometimes that opinion is like a little saying I saw on a Christian Counseling Center's Marquee: "Wisdom has two parts, having a lot to say and not saying it."
I think Brad has alot he could say, but doesn't say it. What he does say, though it may be debated with zealous abandon, is his view, opinion, and backed up with his own research. I don't quibble much with his blogs. I ask questions. I'm seeking. When I make statements, I usually speak from that which I know, not what I think I know to be true.
Some seekers aren't questioning his statements, they question his audacity to be able to make the statement in a free country on his own blogsite. That, dear Rex, blows my mind. Since I've been reading Guardian-Ministries, I've noticed folks like yourself who have invariably tried to paint him black, gray and brown. They call him to task on how he dots an "i" and how he crosses a "t". I find it most interesting that innuendos and accusations have no bearing on the subject matter, nor do they give evidence to the accusation, which Brad always calls for.
I'm not a charter member blogger here so I cannot attest to all his blogs, but the ones I've read and commented on, he's been more than kind to me. If someone wants to debate the issues raised, I'm all for it; I learn from that. And from what I've read in these blogs, Brad grants incredible grace in allowing folks room for chasing rabbits. AND even in tit-for-tats. Maybe he is too graceful and merciful there.
Anyway, I haven't read much of your Actsoftruth. I'm afraid I haven't even read your blogs. But I usually don't read other's blogs when I'm held at armslength by a comment. Now that you seem to want to communicate, I will drop by and visit you a spell. For now? selahV
Selah,
No wonder “old” didn’t get you angry; you’re still a spring chicken. Ah, to be 58 again; that was the year I won my age group in the Dallas triathlon after a bike wreck.
In two months I’ll be 75—Lord willing. Ten years ago, due to ignorance, I swam alone 4 miles across the Sea of Galilee. But enough on bragging or stupidity—lets talk theology of old people.
Here’s a deep subject: Why do women say, “Hee, hee, and men say, “Ha, ha.”? Or am I wrong on that?
I’m glad someone besides me believes for God to be a just God, he did not give his Son an easy out in paying for our sins by skipping Hell. Hell is the penalty of sin and sin can’t be paid for without experiencing it.
Now, heaven. There have been many ‘after death experiences.’ All tell how happy they felt.
One man telling me about it got so excited his eyes just sparkled.
So why must God wipe away all tears in heaven?
If everyone is happy, why would anyone cry? I believe we will cry when we search heaven and can’t find someone we love or just known as an acquaintance, and regret that we had not done more to win them to Christ, or didn’t do anything at all.
Such was the time when a man showed me his heart operation scar, and said, “I just take it one day at a time.”
(An hour before, I had walked away from him telling a dirty joke.) I could have said, “Yes, one day at a time is all we have—do you know Jesus?” But instead I left saying, “I’ll see ya.”
Ten minutes later he was dead. His last words were, “I’m dizzy”, not knowing he was leaving this world for the next.
Rex Ray
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