One of my favorite scenes in the Fellowship of the Ring (Lord of the Rings) is when the fellowship is formed. I especially enjoy when Gimli and Legolas lay aside their lifelong distrust of each other, in order to accomplish the goal of defeating the greater evil that threatens both lands. That is not to say, that both the dwarfs and the elves had legitimate concerns about each other…but it is to say, they laid those concerns aside, for a time, in order to concentrate on more pressing matters. We could learn from that strategy.
I will gladly cooperate with Mormons in order to elect morally conservative representatives. I will cooperate with Catholics in order to legislate pro-life statutes. In fact, I will even cooperate with moral atheists in order to make state constitutional changes, which would protect from the legalization of same-sex marriages.
Perchance those of us who disagree about how big the tent in the SBC should be, can concentrate on more important issues this week: Namely…THE ELECTIONS.
I feel VERY STRONGLY about not widening the SBC to become an ecumenical group that sacrifices doctrinal purity for ecumenical unity (a place we have been before). Nevertheless, I am even more concerned about the greater evils of Sodom and Gomorrah becoming legal in our country. Perhaps, we (bloggers) can take the time we would normally devote to SBC issues (on which we disagree), and, for the next week, give it to prayer for our elections.
I will gladly respond to comments this week…but I feel compelled to not post until after the elections (giving the time I would normally use for posting, to prayer).
After the election we will return to the issue of PPL. I will post my personal thoughts and also some evidence from a BP article, which contrary to what some say, reveals this really is a no spin zone. (As I have said on numerous occasions, “I will gladly retract ANYTHING I have said which is not accurate.”)
Have a great week, may God Bless America, and may we stand for truth and justice.
“Righteousness exalteth a nation; but sin is a reproach to any people.” - Proverbs 14:
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52 comments:
My dear brother Brad,
Normally I agree with most of what you write and I agree with almost everything you've written here except for one statement.
You said, "I will gladly cooperate with Mormons in order to elect morally conservative representatives."
My dear brother, I would humbly ask you to reconsider that position based on scripture. The scripture I'm referring to is 2 Cor. 6:14-18. I think the principle here includes partnering with unbelievers in marriage, business, or politics.
Morality and Christianity is not necessarily the same thing. A person can be moral in the eyes of man (Mormons) but have the wrath of God abiding on them because of their unbelief in the biblical Jesus.
Other than that, this is a very good post.
Grace and peace to you.
Les
Les
Good thought. However, my point was, I would glady cooperate with Mormons in order to re-elect Orrin Hatch (a known Mormon) over his democrat opponent.
Perhaps you and I will disagree here and that is ok my friend.
I am extremely concerned about the next Supreme Court appointment as well as constitutional amendments regarding same sex marriage, and I will gladly participate and even cooperate with the "lost" in order to win this election.
BR
Brad,
I'm still looking for a candidate who is willing to push for legalization of marijuana and prostitution. :) You know us Libertarians and our wacky political views!! While I place economic conservatism before moral conservatism in the secular arena (which is where I believe politics fall), we will usually end up on the same side as, generally speaking, those who are economically conservative (albeit not quite to the extreme that us Libertarians are), are generally the moral conservatives as well. I, too, am concerned about SC appointees, but I rest in the comfort of knowing that it is God who establishes kings and brings them down - not us. So I join you in prayer to the one who holds the power.
PS - I passed my black belt exam yesterday afternoon. I am EXTREMELY bruised and sore today.
Grace and peace brother,
PTL
Brad,
I agree when we do what would bring Glory and Honor to God.
Great Post.
Les, I see your side of this as well, but the lesser of two, I have to agree with Brad.
ps, Tim Rogers has a good post on his Blog.
http://southernbaptistinnc.blogspot.com/
In His Name
Wayne Smith
Brad,
I agree with you that we will have to agree to disagree on this one. :)
Regards,
Les
Les,
M's around the world have to cooperate with Muslims, buddhists, and communists in order to gain access to people.
We sometimes have to cator to the needs of communist or buddhist government officials just to have access to the people who need to hear the good news.
God has even given us gatekeepers who never show any interest in Christ, but for some reason keep the door open for us to do what we do.
I agree with BR on this one.
Security III M
PTL
Congratulations - I test for my brown in a couple of months...I can't imagine what you went through for the black.
We all rest in God's Sovriegnty, but not to the point we become fatalists:)
God bless my brother
BR
Wayne
Thank you brother.
I too see Les's point I just disagree here...but we can all agree to pray as PTL suggested.
BR
Anonymous
Thanks for your perspective. I am grateful for the Pharoahs (gatekeepers) who promote the Josephs.
God is a great God...be blessed my brother.
BR
Brad,
Good post. I am for anything that will stop the problem with Sodomites we are experiencing in this country.
Children are put more and more at risk as Sodomites get more legal privileges.
cb
Brother Brad,
Great insight! What a good illustration to use as we look at the secular in this upcoming week.
I understand what Brother Les is saying, but I have to say I agree with you. I believe once we begin saying that we need to cooperate with Mormons in an effort to plant chuches in Utah, this would be the dividing line for me. I have cooperated with Mormons to fight Liquor-by-the-Drink issues.
Blessings,
Tim
Tim
Agreed.
No way would I cooperate in planting churches with them:)
BR
CB
I agree. Your old stomping ground (VA) is voting on a Constitutional amendment to prohibit same sex marriages.
BR
Brad,
Yes, I know. It is due to the godless DC crowd that lives in N.VA. You can be asssured that true Virginians will hold to the sanctity of marriage.
The left and the right will come together to defeat the nut cases.
cb
never thought i'd see the day that we would be voting about marriage being between a man and a woman. but, here we are! in tn, we will be voting on it. wow!
from the hills of tn,
volfan007
Dr. Reynolds,
Thank you for supporting good working relations between Elves and Dwarfs. Tell me, Dr. Reynolds, do you consider yourself an Elf or a Dwarf? Personally, I desire to be an Elf for I lust after their skill with the bow. But I suppose I'm stuck being a Dwarf. :)
Francis Schaffer argued for virtually the same position as do you, Dr. Reynolds, calling it cultural "co-belligerency." For my part I agree--but moreso in humanitarian issues rather than raw political involvement. I do wonder how far the idea can travel but believe it to be worth the ride even if only for a few miles.
Also, I'm wondering how far Elves (SBC) and Dwarfs (non-SBC evangelicals) may travel as "co-belligerents" in world evangelism before somebody has to get out of the bus.
Great post. Peace for this afternoon, Dr. Reynolds. With that, I am...
Peter
Bear
Read Peter's comment. That is my position. I think we can cooperate on some moral issues. Would you work with a Mormon, who was on the same jury as yourself, to convict a murderer? My point is we can work with them on some issues while not validating their heresy!
Believe me the only Mormons I want in the SBC are those who have been saved by the blood of Jesus and are no longer Mormons. No widening the tent here. I hope that alleviates your fears.
BR
Peter
I never thought about whether I was an elf or a dwarf. I guess if I had to be forced to answer I feel I would be much like you (wanting to be an elf but realizing I'm a dwarf).
Great thoughts though.
I think we can ride a few miles with Mormons on moral issues but inevitably we will part ways. Further, I think we can obviously ride much further with non-SB in order to share Christ but alas I feel certain we would also part with non-SB at some point. I think that is my main concern with widening the tent. Ecumenical unity gained at the cost of doctrinal purity.
Be blessed my friend. Please know when I am reminded of you (like now) I lift your ministry in prayer.
BR
Volfan
I will be praying that Tenn takes the right stand along with Va on this issue.
It is sad we have arrived at this point in our country. I think it testifies that we Christians have tried to become too much like the world and don't separate ourselves in the way we live.
CB - agreed.
BR
Brad,
I agree and while we are riding together we can witness Salvation is thought Jesus Christ who is God with them.
I think we can ride a few miles with Mormons on moral issues but inevitably we will part ways if they don't want to hear the Good News.
In His Name
Wayne Smith
Billy Bear,
I guess I have seen so much of what this Sodomite sickness has done to little children that I agree with Brad on working with Mormons.
I had the wonderful privilege of working for General Patton's Chaplain for four years. He said that Patton was right:
Patton was willing to work with the Russians in order to rid the earth of the Nazi horror. He then believed that he should have been allowed to go on into Russia and clean house.
I think we should work with Mormons or whoever to save families and children and tell those we work with that there is a Heaven to gain and a Hell to fear and the only hope for the gain of Heaven and freedom of the fear of Hell is to know Jesus as Savior according to the gospel of the Bible alone.
cb
CB and Wayne
I'm with you.
BR
bear,
i am sorry, partner, but i'm with cb and wayne and brad on this one.
volfan007
Dear brothers,
As humbly as I know how, allow me to ask a question at this point in the discussion.
I am reading a lot of "I think" and "I agree" on this thread, but I haven't read "Here's what the Bible says..."
I have stated my biblical reason for my position (2 Cor. 6:14-18). May I read your biblical position for yours?
Grace and peace to you.
Les
Les,
Sorry I side with Brad, can you believe it?
This is what my Nelson Study Bible says.2Co_6:14
unequally yoked: The Corinthians were shutting Paul out of their hearts (2Co_6:11-13) and developing a dangerous affection for the false apostles (2Co_11:4, 2Co_11:13; see Pro_4:23).
2Co_6:15
The term Belial for Satan only occurs here in the New Testament. It refers to one who is vile and wicked and causes destruction.
2Co_6:16
you are the temple: A reference to Lev_26:11, Lev_26:12 as well as perhaps other passages such as Jer_32:38 and Eze_37:27, to remind the Corinthians of their relationship with God. Since the Holy Spirit was living in them, they were God’s new dwelling place (1Co_6:19).
2Co_6:17, 2Co_6:18
2Co_6:17 is derived from Isa_52:11 with words from Eze_20:34 added. 2Co_6:18 is taken from 2Sa_7:14 with words added from Isa_43:6. come out … be separate: Paul was not encouraging isolation from unbelievers (see 1Co_9:5-13) but discouraging compromise with their sinful values and practices. He was urging them (and us) to maintain integrity in the world just as Christ did (see Joh_15:14-16; Phi_2:14-16).
In His Name
Wayne Smith
Les,
Would it possibly be that this type of cooperation be under common cause?
Examples:
Work to provide for family.
City government
War to protect homeland and citizens in foreign lands.
Natural disaster relief.
Community helping to find a lost child.
I must live in this world with non-Christians. I must not be as the non-Christian. I must not compromise my faith.
Does not 2Cor. 6:14-18 speak to giving equality to false teaching of false teachers to that of orthodox faith. Is that not the context? I may be wrong. I am just asking for you to give it a consideration.
cb
Les,
Thank you for your faithfulness to God’s Word and seeking its authority for answers. Surely it is our final authority. However, on this issue the Bible is silent but I believe there are principles, which can guide us. Nowhere do we see that Christians are too work with non-Christians for moral purposes, nor do we see they are forbidden from doing so.
I believe the passage you quote has to do with believers marrying unbelievers and I think you stretch the text to apply it to working with unbelievers for moral purposes.
I would argue that while the Bible has no prescriptive texts I think there are some descriptive texts in both the Old and New Testaments. Joseph certainly worked with Pharaoh to improve society; I believe the same could be said of Daniel, the 3 Hebrew Children, and Ezra. I also think we have glimpses of this in Paul’s life and influence.
I further believe the writers of the BFM saw these principles under their section on the Christian and the Social Order when they refused to put limitations on how Christians should oppose all forms of sexual immorality (including homosexuality).
Hope this helps you understand my position here.
BR
Bear
I understand.
CB
Agreed
Wayne
Thanks
BR
Billy Bear,
I promise not to vote for any Popes. Also, we should get several other fellows to eat with us.
There are many great places on River Walk, as Brad will tell you, that will seat bears and other various critters like preachers, faculty types and people dressed up like Davy Crockett.
I look forward to it. Also, I promise not to wear a black tie or ride a bike with a backpack:-)
cb
Brad,
I must respectfully disagree about stretching the text, so let's agree to disagree on that.
One other concern in partnering with Mormons or any other religious organization that is not Christian, is one of appearance of validity.
According to the SBC produced video, "The Mormon Puzzle," the LDS church seeks to be known as just another Christian denomination. When we stand beside them on these issues, is it possible that some are going to come to this conclusion, i.e., Mormons are just another Christian organization?
I believe I can stand against abortion without having to partner with Mormons or elect Mormons to political office. I have seen many SBC families deceived by Mormons and I cannot be a party to legitamizing them or their cult.
One other point I'd like to propose. Is it possible that we are being seduced by a situational ethics philosophy instead of biblical principles? From a situational ethics perspective, I mean, the ends justifies the means. That sounds more worldly than biblical to me.
Believe me, I despise abortion of any kind. But I believe we can accomplish just as much without having to partner with cults to do it.
Grace and peace to all.
Les
CB,
I see your point but I'm not sure I agree with it.
If I stand up as a Christian to help get a Mormon named Romney elected, have I just helped the world to view Mormonism as "just another Christian denomination"?
Would you assist a Scientology candiate if he was against homosexuality and abortion?
Friend, I trust in a sovereign God instead of a sovereign government. I do not believe government is the answer nor do I think you do either. We know that Jesus is the answer.
I participate in the political process through my vote, but I don't believe for one moment that the political outcome is anything more than God decrees (Romans 13:1).
Regards,
Les
Brad and all,
Great thread. I don't think I've seen this much civility on one of Brad's posts ever! :) Brad, you've hit it on the head about 'descriptive' texts (Joseph, Esther, etc.). Even Paul was a citizen of Rome. I think one of the most important things Christ and Paul both taught us through what we can glean from the texts involving their priorities is that reaching the lost world with the love of Christ was of higher priority than changing/maintaining the civil status quo. That's not to say that legal issues were not important to them - just that their priorities were not juxtaposed. As we get closer to election time, let us not forget that our great commission is not to make sure we have Republican control of congress, but rather that we are to make disciples of all the nations.
Grace and peace to all,
PTL
Les
If the means were wrong then I would agree with your statement about the ends justifying the means, but the means are not evil. Just because I work with lost souls to create a neighborhood watch does not mean I approve of their lifestyle and if I cooperate with them in the Spirit and Love of Christ then the means is not evil.
You have a valid concern about the appearance of validating Mormons as legitimate Christians…However, I think we can address that easily…while I will cooperate with them in order to fight abortions I will also make clear I believe they are a cult.
I can cooperate with lost souls to outlaw Gambling, Abortion, Homosexuality and other social evils without compromising the Truth of the gospel.
I hope I am making sense…God Bless my friend
BR
PTL
The spirit of this posts has to do with the participants. Perhaps they will be an example to others.
BR
cb and bear,
i plan on being in san antonio. would i be welcome at yall's table?
volfan007
Brad,
While you cooperate with lost souls to outlaw gambling, I hope to find other Christians with whom I can cooperate to make gambling legal. :)
Grace and peace brother,
PTL
Just dropped by to see how things are going.
Hope things are well at SEBTS.
gotta run, trying to commit to memory the Qal performatives and sufformatives, and pronominal suffixes.
God Bless you brother!
Les and PTL,
I also agree with what you are saying. God uses all kind of people to accomplish His Purpose and has done so through out history. David Rogers has a Great Post on these matters. We just need to get the Politics out of the SBC.
In His Name
Wayne Smith
***Mormon Alert***
Dear Dr. Reynolds,
I found your post well written and very interesting. I appreciate your objectivity given the clearly subjective topic. To this I add the nugget "politics makes strange bedfellows".
Like our Evangelical bretheren, we Mormons are committed to protecting the family and the sanctity of marriage and to that end we will join together with moral conservatives to resist the current trend to secularism and moral relativism.
Pastor Puryear,
Although I understand your posts from the sense that we Mormons are not jumping for joy at the thought of partnering with the Evangelicals either, I must state we are certianly willing to do what is necessary to fight the threat facing us all.
Pastor, there is a world outside of your chuch. You can be in the world and not of the world and that applies to this case as well. Join the fight or sit on the sidelines but please do not hinder the work that needs to be done.
I question your arrogance to think that because you, or the Evangelicals, voted for a Mormon that somehow it would legitimize the religion to the world.
It also appears from your blog that you have enough doctrinal issues within your own ranks to worry about the Mormons anyway.
Either way, this was a great post and an interesting thread.
Keep up the good work gentlemen.
Lug, out
PTL
Sadly, I think you will have no problem finding them:)
James
My brother, I prayed for you on Monday. Great to hear from you…I hope classes are going well…e-mail me sometime. Thanks for dropping by.
BR
lug nutmegger
Thank you my friend. I posted something a little over a month ago and I would consider it a gesture of goodwill if you could read it and tell me your thoughts. You can find it under my August posts...it is titled "what happens when I die?"
Let me know your thoughts.
Also, thanks for dropping by. Please know that we SB do have our internal struggles but we are united to telll others of Christ. Please forgive me and us if we have in any way been a harmful testimony of Christ to you.
BR
Dear Dr. Reynolds,
It was a pleasure to drop by and I look forward to reading your post and will do so this evening.
I actually shouldn't have even said anything about whatever minor issues you and your organization may have. It was completely irrelevant and unnecessary. Please fogive me.
By no means was my impression anything other than positive. Your testimony of Christ is abundantly evident. Although our doctrinal concept (Trinity Vs. Godhead) of Christ may differ we to strive to live a more Christ-like life as written in the Bible.
Again, keep up the good work and God bless you.
Sincerely,
Lug
Lug
thanks, we will definitely disagree on the Trinity but would love to visit more about this. Thanks for your kind spirit.
CB
My brother...be careful about those texas statements:)
BR
cb,
i will leave the orange at home. i always enjoy people buying me dinner, and to see you dance a jig would be.........fun.
volfan007
Brother Brad,
Man, according to Brother Les' latest article on his blog he has gone for the weekend to learn about the Recovery process and starting one in his church.
Does this mean that if we disagree with you we need to go to rehab? :>)
Blessings,
Tim
Tim
I am becoming convinced that all of us bloggers need some rehab:)
BR
Dr. Reynolds,
I read your post "What happens when I die" last evening as promised.
But first I wish to address Rev. Bubba:
Rev. Bubba,
You crack me up! I did not consider your comments as "mean" and in fact you had me rolling. "Bicycle ridin' fellers", I am gonna use that one myself, I will give you credit each time although I can't pay you royalties.
I find your writing style to be extremely amusing and wish I was as clever as you.
Dr. Reynolds,
I read your post "What happens when I die" and enjoyed it very much. To be honest i am not sure what type of comments to leave. From a LDS perspective we have a slighty different view but only slightly; We believe in hell, an outer darkness outside of God's presence for the same reason's you write. We believe Jesus died on the cross in order to save us and help us return to heaven. We believe that while the gift of salvation is available to all, only those who accept the gift receive it. When you die your soul will go one way or the other. I would say that these concepts are generally accepted and I find them to be true as well.
I am having a little difficulty in understanding what you mean when you state that just by "saying the prayer alone you are not saved, but by trusting your life to God". What does it mean to trust God with your life? How do you go about doing that?
As I was reading that last part of the post it appears to me you were talking about "works" (and when I say works I mean trying to live a Christ-like life). Can you help me a little with that?
At any rate I thought it was an excellent post and will help many to understand how to get to heaven in a clear and reasonable manner. You have a wonderful way with words.
Thanks and have a blessed weekend,
Lug, out
Lug
You are very intelligent and wise also. I am heading to bed to read the Bible with my wife tonight, and have to leave for a hospital visit early in the morning (3 hours away) so I will not be home until evening but at that time, I will try to answer your questions with the time and thought they deserve. I am enjoying, very much, our conversation.
BR
Lug
Trusting God with one’s life does mean that one accepts Christ not only as Savior of one’s life but also as one’s Lord. Surely, this means that when one gets saved then one accepts a life of obedience to Christ. However, unlike all other religions (and I will include Mormonism here) Christianity is not a works salvation but a salvation that works. The difference is that with all other religions, one works and does good things in order to be right with their God, in Christianity however, one works and does good things because one has been made right with God by the work of Christ.
Thus, an individual who is on their death bed can be presented the gospel and although they have lived a life of evil, if they accept the work of Christ on their behalf and make him Lord of their life (for whatever amount of time they have left) then they will be saved (the thief on the Cross).
I would love to visit more with you on these subjects and if you would feel more comfortable through e-mail please e-mail me at breynolds@sebts.edu
Hope this helps
BR
I'd stand with any Mormon, Catholic, etc. to help someone like a Orrin Hatch get elected over, say, a John Kerry.
That's a no-brainer to me.
Rev. Bear,
Like many religions, Mormons are not without their share of break-offs etc. Restored Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Fundementalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, etc, etc. If, for example, Warren Jeffs (former leader of the FLDS) wished to be brought under the LDS tent I am certain we would have a problem with that. That is an extreme example but I can certainly understand where you are coming from.
Dr. Reynolds,
I just got back in town from a business trip but I will send an e-mail this weekend.
Thanks and have a great weekend.
Lug
BRAD: I love to read the comments on your blog. They are quite enlightening to the personality of folks. Often I find myself venturing onto their sites and finding more humor, greater theology and some divisive attitudes. However, since reading this post you have on holiness and how comments have led to discussion of attire or lack thereof, I've found a few of the folks here are a bit disturbed that you have deigned to discuss such trivia in light of what holiness is all about.
Don't know much about theology, I've confessed. Have my own set of standards via biblical teaching as to keeping oneself holy in behavior considering Jesus says to "be" that way. But an interesting thing happened today. I subscribe to John Piper's newsletter. While I am a non-Calvinist, I can appreciate Piper's messages and even get some neat stuff from them. He is, after all a great lover of the Lord.
That said, let me add a bit to your discussion thread on what Piper's newsletter contained. For those of your readers who seem to think you, Bro. Brad, are pointing fingers at non-issues. Below is from John Piper:
"Those who try to reverse this divine decision in search of the primal innocence of the Garden of Eden are putting the cart before the horse. Until all sin is gone from our souls and from the world, being clothed is God’s will for a witness to our fall. Taking your clothes off does not put you back into pre-Fall paradise; it puts you into post-Fall shame. That’s God’s will. It’s why modesty is a crucial post-Fall virtue.
Above all, let us remember that when Jesus Christ died for us, he “despised the shame” of the cross and bore it for us. Our shame is removed in his death for us. What then shall we wear? Paul tells us in Romans 13:14: Wear Christ. “Put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires.” If you wear Christ, you will never hear any brave and wise soul cry out to you, “Shame on your nakedness.”
Praying with you in the pursuit of purity within and without,"
All I can say is, I agree with Piper as well as you, Brad. And I may be totally off base, but believe you are both saying the same thing. selahV
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