Friday, September 15, 2006

The IMB, Eitel’s letter and the Blogs

Marty Duren has questioned me concerning my timeline of events at the IMB as posted here under “The IMB, Dr. Patterson, Dr. Eitel, and Truth.” I will now respond to him. Let me state, up front, I believe Marty to be a man who loves Jesus and seeks Truth with a pure heart...for that we are grateful. However, I think he is still Hoodwinked:)

1. He is correct in stating that I said “Dr. Eitel sent the letter to the IMB Trustees.” I was wrong in saying that and I apologize to all. He is also correct in stating it was unintentional on my part as evidenced by other comments I have made. He is further technically correct in saying, it wasn’t Dr. Eitel that mailed it, but Dr. Patterson.

This however, does not change the fact that Dr. Eitel wrote the paper WITHOUT Dr. Patterson’s knowledge or input and that he sent it to Dr. Patterson to send to the Administration and the Trustees on his behalf.

2. Marty claims I took a miss-step Chronologically. And points to the committee not looking at résumé’s until January of ’04. However, he also makes a miss-step here:)

- Dr. Eitel was contacted in May ’03
- August ’03 - A trustee TELLS Dr. Eitel the Administration is slowing the process in an effort to make sure Dr. Eitel won’t be looked at.
- September ’03 – Dr. Eitel has heard nothing from the committee.
- Dr. Eitel and Dr. Patterson conclude he will not be interviewed.
- Dr. Eitel sends Dr. Patterson his paper to send to trustees on Eitel's behalf.
- He wasn't interviewed.

SUBSTANTIVE CONCLUSION: 1) paper written in June/July by Dr. Eitel for an interview; 2) it was viewed in August by Dr. Patterson; 3) Eitel and Patterson conclude he will not be interviewed; 4) Paper sent in Sept.



Out of courtesy, I will also do my best to honestly answer Marty’s questions, even though I believe the questions belong in a gossip column on SB politics rather than on my blog where I desire to deal with substantive THEOLOGICAL ISSUES. Marty, there is no harshness intended here…I’m just not sure this has anything to do with the substance of Eitel's paper or with happenings in the SBC.

Marty: - 1. Is there a little greasy spoon cafe in Wake Forest known as The Border?

Actually Wake Forest does have a restaurant called The Border, it also has many other restaurants where we professors like to eat: Over the Falls Deli; Havana Jax, etc.


Marty: 2. In the first half of this decade was it a common practice for students, faculty and employees of SEBTS to eat lunch there between 11:00 and 3:00 on most, if not all, days of the week?

It is still common practice for those of us on tight budgets to eat at the Border on many days of the week. EXCELLENT FOOD – MINIMAL PRICE:)


Marty: 3. Was it common for the attendees at this almost daily get together to discuss any and all activities, personalities and politics of SBC life?

It is very common for me to discuss things in the SBC, no matter where I eat or who I am eating with – I love the SBC and am concerned about all facets of it…I even pray for it (i.e. – I talk to Father about it also). The implication that my “shooting the breeze” with colleagues has any power to influence decisions in the SBC is most fallacious. I wish we did have that type of power (If we did, I would like to believe we would not only solve the SBC problems but most of the world’s problems too).


Marty: 4. Was part of this ongoing conversation the situation at the IMB, which was of such concern to Drs. Eitel and Patterson?

To this day, part of my conversation with colleagues, students and friends still involves the SBC, the IMB, our seminaries, churches, etc – Our conversations at the Border is by no means limited to the IMB or even the SBC for that matter.

HOWEVER, I DO RECALL A PRAYER REQUEST BY DR. EITEL IN WHICH HE STATED THAT HE HAD RECIEVED AN E-MAIL FROM THE IMB ADMINISTRATION CONTAINING A THREAT TO REMOVE OUR 2+2 PROGRAM IF EITEL CONTINUED IN HIS PRINCIPLED DISSENT. In other words, we will not work with SE students (but we will work with Great Commission Christians of other denominations) unless you stop dissenting from our practices.


Marty: 5-8

I have NO knowledge of a discussion about a Trustee vote to oust Dr. Rankin. However, even if it did occur and some profs theorized on how many Trustees were needed…this does not imply anything but seminary faculty “shooting the breeze” (we are just not as powerful as you assume).


Marty: 9. Was there an offer made to Benjamin S. Cole, as he alleges, “to go on payroll at Southwestern Seminary in February of 2004 when a job was offered to [him]. The proposed job was to listen to audio-recordings of Jerry Rankin and to cull them for suspicious charismatic theology”? If so, would this be considered a proper use of Cooperative Programs funds?

Ben is in a position to answer that, not me. He could probably further explain why he was dismissed at the ILC and the theological concerns he had while he was there.


Marty: 10. If the answer to most or all of these questions is “yes,” does it not demonstrate a “behind the scenes, underhanded, manipulative effort to undermine the IMB administration or to influence policy”?

NO – There are a few reasons we may conclude NO. First, to my knowledge Dr. Patterson has NEVER eaten at the Border. He did not participate in any “back-room” discussions because he was not there. Second just because faculty get together and discuss happenings in the SBC does not mean there is a “behind the scenes, underhanded, manipulative effort to undermine the IMB administration or to influence policy?” - In other words, just because guys get together over a meal and discuss problems in the SBC (something that happens everyday across the convention, especially over the GREASY SPOON of BLOGS) does not imply a Great Deceptive Conspiracy, which will doom the IMB administration.

Now, if I contacted a group of colleagues and said “I want to get with you in Memphis and discuss a plan on how we can change the leadership of the SBC”…then maybe some could conclude a conspiracy, but this isn’t what happened at The Border.


Yet this leaves us with some real substantive ETHICAL and THEOLOGICAL issues.

1. No one has shown where Dr. Patterson, in any way, influenced Dr. Eitel’s Paper – to imply so without evidence is not just wrong it is intentionally deceptive and unethical.

2. No one has demonstrated, in any way, where Dr. Eitel’s concerns were invalid. Some have tried to imply that the Leadership Development Sub-Committee’s Report has shown Eitel’s paper to be erroneous. Yet, it has done nothing of the sort. In fact one Trustee met with both Dr. Rankin and Seminary Leadership over two years ago to address the problems at the ILC after the IMB Trustees had received numerous complaints of teaching at the ILC.

The man overseeing the curriculum at the time has since resigned (but Ben Cole has demonstrated some of his non-BFM2K Theology on Ben’s latest post).

Ron Wilson began making immediate changes and has continued to make excellent changes over the past two and a half years. Moreover, the guidance of Dr. Tom Elliff for the past year has further contributed to this correction. One Trustee I spoke with basically said: with the changes provided by Dr. Elliff and Ron Wilson in tandem with more and more seminary professors teaching at the ILC there has been drastic improvement “both in the teaching and the curriculum.” Of note, a Trustee also told me: the input of Dr. Eitel’s paper was, in large part, the impetus “that helped make these changes!”

I was further informed, that the latest report dealt with the CURRENT standing of the ILC, NOT the happenings when Eitel wrote his paper!

I want to Praise God for the IMB administration’s wisdom in making these changes, I want to Praise God for the impetus (however great or small) Dr. Eitel’s paper provided for the changes. And most of all I want to Praise God for the changes!!!

To those interested I will soon post both of Eitel’s papers and Dr. Patterson’s cover letter. However, I felt I owed Marty a response. Marty, may we keep digging for Truth.

However, I am trying to not post much of what I know, because I am not convinced that it will enhance the Kingdom of God. And yet, I will correct false allegations made in the SBC blogworld, for the sake of truth.

Which leaves us with two lingering questions: HAS ANYONE SHOWN DR. EITEL’s PAPER TO BE ERRONEOS IN ANY OF ITS ASSERTIONS OF THINGS OCCURING IN ‘02 AND ’03? And if not, do the Bloggers who have asserted its error not owe Dr. Patterson and Dr. Eitel an apology?
BR

84 comments:

HarveyTheRabbitt said...

Brad,

There is no doubt that Wade and Marty need to get on their knees and ask Dr.s Patterson and Eitel for forgiveness, but they should do the same for you. Their blogs have misjudged, misrepresented, and misinterpreted you for far too long.

Thank you for being a man of truth and integrity. I will continue to get my news from Fox News and Brads Blog.

Finally a blog you can trust. May your tribe increase.

Harvey

brad reynolds said...

Harvey
Thanks for the word.

However, they owe me no apology. Marty has been cordial and fair to me and Wade has been cordial. Others have not been either. Being misjudged, misrepresented, and misinterpreted goes with being in the blogworld (sadly).

We will continue to do our best to have the NO-SPIN ZONE of Blogs:)
BR

Bowden McElroy said...

I was disapointed the other day when I read the comments in yours and Marty's blog. Not by what either of you wrote, but by the venom of some of the commenters.

The recent exchange between the two of you on your respective blogs, however, is another story. Disagreement with civility is refreshing.

brad reynolds said...

Thanks Bowden,
I truly believe we can legitimately discuss concerns in the SBC in a way that honors the Father and seeks for truth. Thank you for your encouragement.

I must confess the medium is not conducive to expressing a sweet spirit without adding flowery language. And further, I feel I have failed many times expressing my thoughts adequately in prose...but I shall continue to strive to improve.
BR

sbc pastor said...

Brad,

Excellent post. God bless!!!

In Christ,
JLG

brad reynolds said...

Jeremy
Thanks

martyduren said...

Brad-
Thanks again for your kind spirit. I am also appreciative for responding to the questions as I posed them, I'm hopeful that others will do so as well. *The Truth is Out There*

Also (and I'm not going to go point by point, you and I have both made clear statements that folks can evaluate), but you err again by claiming a mis-step in my chronology:

Brad:
- Dr. Eitel was contacted in May ’03
- August ’03 - A trustee TELLS Dr. Eitel the Administration is slowing the process in an effort to make sure Dr. Eitel won’t be looked at.
- September ’03 – Dr. Eitel has heard nothing from the committee.
- Dr. Eitel and Dr. Patterson conclude he will not be interviewed.
- Dr. Eitel sends Dr. Patterson his paper to send to trustees on Eitel's behalf.
- He wasn't interviewed.


Here's the rub: I can't see any trustee having the actual authority to speak on behalf of the administration on the hiring of a VP. The entire Search Committee consults with the President, not an individual trustee. That is not to say that some trustee did not spread a rumor, or their own perception, to Dr. Eitel giving him the impression that he would not be considered. Now your scenario has Eitel dropping out of the race before the Search Committee met for the first time.

The following is a humorous retelling, so please don't be mad. It was however the first thing that came to my mind.

- Dr. Eitel was contacted in May ’03
- August ’03 - A trustee unwisely TELLS Dr. Eitel the Administration is slowing the process in an effort to make sure Dr. Eitel won’t be looked at. But it means nothing since he/she can't speak for the administration.
- September ’03 – Dr. Eitel has heard nothing from the committee, which is not surprising since they didn't consider resumes for another 4 months.
- Dr. Eitel and Dr. Patterson jump the gun in concluding that he will not be interviewed.
- Dr. Patterson shoots Eitel in the foot by sending the White Paper to all the trustees.
- Due to the negative response to the White Paper and the blood from Eitel's foot that was on it, he wasn't interviewed.

Thanks, Brad. Have a really good weekend. Also, thanks for the kind email today.

brad reynolds said...

Marty
No offense taken at your attempted humor:) - and I too am appreciative of your spirit in this.

However, If you think Dr. Rankin was unaware of students calling Dr. Eitel and telling him of things happening at the IMB before the fall of '03 you may want to talk to Ben again.

Further, if you think it didn't bother Dr. Rankin, you may want to talk to Ben again.

Now, whether Dr. Rankin was above using his influence to drag out the process and to work toward Dr. Eitel's removal of consideration is something only a few people truly know.

Yet, that has no bearing on the SUBSTANCE behind all of this, which is: 1. Concerns in Eitel's paper; 2. Eitel's paper prepared for the purpose of an interview (not a planned attack on the IMB administration by Dr. Patterson); 3. Patterson's lack of knowledge of and influence on Eitel's paper. All of which prompted the last questions I asked on this post.

Bro. Robin said...

Bro. Brad

Thank you for your post. I too am concerned about the questions that were posed by Marty D. I believed you answered every one with poise and dignity.

To state questions linking someone to overthrowing leadership without substantive evidence they were doing this lacks a Christian spirit in this debate. Unfortunately this is becoming more common on blogs that seek to discredit Dr. Patterson and others who support him.

I will continue to follow your blog.

God Bless

Bro. Robin

brad reynolds said...

Robin
Thank you. I have posted on Marty's a comment in regard to Ben's comment. Quite frankly, and I don't mind all the world knowing, I was upset at the attack upon Eitel. I know that man and he has a gentle heart and yet a theological prowess rarely equalled. This I'm sure has caused him sleepless nights as he stands for truth and yet is wrongly accused. Would that I had a heart like his.
Moreover, the attack was unprovoked...it accomplished nothing! Besmirching a fellow Christian for no reason! Astonishing!
BR

sbc pastor said...

Brad,

I too find both MD's and BSC's accusations - without any evidence whatsoever - completely inappropriate. Admittedly, I have not been around Dr. Eitel as much as several of you but I have spoken with him on a few occasions and he has preached for me before. I have always found him to be a very gracious, kind, and godly man. Thus, I find their comments very disturbing. God bless!!!

In Christ,
JLG

sbc pastor said...

Robin,

In regard to your statement:

“To state questions linking someone to overthrowing leadership without substantive evidence they were doing this lacks a Christian spirit in this debate. Unfortunately this is becoming more common on blogs that seek to discredit Dr. Patterson and others who support him.”

Sadly, I must thoroughly agree with your analysis. Thanks and God bless!!!

In Christ,
JLG

CB Scott said...

Brad,

Dr. Patterson ate at the Border many times.

cb

Bro. Robin said...

Jeremy

When are you going to post again? I am sure you have noticed that your thoughts are a help to many of us in understanding what we are facing. I know that by saying this I might be called a sbc pastor clone. So be it. After all, I am not is search of knowledge which is depressing to other bloggers.

Thanks again

Bro. Robin

CB Scott said...

Brad,

Email me your phone number if you would not mind talking to me.

cb5512@charter.net

cb

brad reynolds said...

CB
Dr. Patterson may have eaten breakfast BY HIMSELF on Saturday mornings when Mrs. Patterson was out of town. But I was speaking of eating in the backroom with professors which is what we were talking about I believe. And I know not of 1 time when he ate back there.
BR

CB Scott said...

Brad,

He did not always eat by himself and she was not always out of town. I was his next door neighbor 7 years. Sometimes he just got up before the sun and went for breakfast. So did Doug Nalley and so did I.

Are you going to send me your phone number?

brad reynolds said...

CB
I've sent it.
His breakfast with you is not equivalent to his eating in the backroom with the faculty. None of those I eat with recall his ever doing that - are you saying he did?
BR

CB Scott said...

Brad,

In the 9+ years I do not know of Dr. Patterson eating lunch at the Border for lunch.

Knowing the food he likes I would bet that he would have liked to rather than to have had to eat some of the stuff served at Mag. Hill during lunch everyday. I am sure you will agree with me on this one thing tonight:-)

brad reynolds said...

CB
When he ate lunch there...did he sit in the backroom and encourage some sort of takeover of the IMB?

Concerning his food temperament, I think he is simliar to me: as long as it gets down, I'm not real picky.
BR

Anonymous said...

Brad,

I am a former student of Dr. Eitels and have known him for over a decade. I agree with you that "he has a gentle heart and yet a theological prowess rarely equalled."

I've been with the IMB for a long time and can vouch for his concerns that were raised in the "White Paper" that almost all the bloggers are ignoring. Let's get back to the crux of the White Paper.

In my early days with the board in my region, the concerns that Eitel outlined were real problems. There really was a de-emphasis on theological education, fuzzy definitions of a church, fuzziness over the role of women SCs and fuzziness on the parameters for partnerships with GCC partners.

Pragmatism masked in the mantra of WIGTAKE (whatever it is going to take to see CPM) was the buzzword in those earlier days.

After the White Papers hit the "fan", things started to change both at MLC and on the field.

The trustees addressed each of Eitels concerns. They backed away from IMB leaderships intentions to drop the required 30 hours of seminary for career appointed SCs. The trustees addressed the issue of what constitutes a church and clearly defined the concentric circles of cooperation with GCC partners.

It bothers me to see Dr. Eitel's name dragged through the mud on the blogs. God has used him to mobilize not a small number of Southern Baptists to the field over the past eleven years; career missionaries who are now engaged in reaching cities and UPGs in some of the most difficult areas of the world.

Thanks Brad for allowing me the opportunity to post anonymously. I really wish I could blog openly, but I serve in a level 3 security location.

former 2+2er

Anonymous said...

Brad,

You really should consider posting the Second letter from Eitel.

former 2+2 student

CB Scott said...

Brad,

Never at any time that I saw Dr. Patterson eat breakfast at the Border did he gather mercs. and plan a take over of anything.

The only thing he was busy taking over at the Border was a fork and directing it to asault his food in a vigorous manner.

Obviously you have not had to eat the food at Mag. Hill as often as I did or you would have gotten the joke about the food.

You ask that we encourage people about falsehoods. Does that include your confronting the "Border Buddies" for lying?
As you say fair is fair.

cb

brad reynolds said...

CB
Concerning the "border buddies" and lying. It is your word verse theirs...so I think the confronting onus is on you not me:)
BR

brad reynolds said...

Former 2+2er.

Thank God for you. I know there are hundreds of you out there.

Thank You.

I wish I could plaster your words over every blog that desires to sweep theological concerns under the rug while spot-lighting personality concerns.

I understand why they don't want to hear the Truth. It invalidates the claims they have been making. But we will continue to focus on the main issues on this blog...which are theological! And Truth Will Prevail!

I wil post the second paper soon...you have my word.
BR

CB Scott said...

Brad,

My last statement is related to your request of Marty in comment60 on his latest post. I should have made that clear.

cb

CB Scott said...

Brad,

Fair is fair so you should not ask Marty to chastize Ben if you can't do the same.

I have not lied to you Brad, not at any time. Take care and May God bless you and when I say that I really mean it.

It is best I leave it here. Tell those three mentioned last night I said they were liars, but not to worry I am not going to hold them accountable. I understand their situation and what makes them do what they do and be what they are.

So long Brad with this mess. I consider you and Tim to be my friends, but the three of us are at an impass here. I know Ben is telling the truth and so am I. I realize Ben and I do not always use proper grace when we say things and for my part in that I truly am sorry. I am sorry for ripping up Mr. Green. I should have just let him talk. He's just a kid.

You, Marty, Tim, Wade and others are much more gracious than we, but in defense none of you know these people like Ben and I do.

We may be hard in what we say but we are not lying and I am ready to face God with that right now.

When we talk again let us talk of the rich things of life and leave this mess made by bloody men behind. It is easy to understand the Civil War and brother against brother when one studies the history of the SBC don't you think?

IN CHRIST FREE,

cb

brad reynolds said...

CB
Pardon my ignorance here. I'm not sure what you are asking me to do.

My comment was in reference to the Memphis Declaration signers' doing something they had signed there names to a paper to do (with God and each other as their witnesses).

And yet, when it comes to fulfilling that vow they seem to be amazingly inept.

Now I am not going to conclude that they were just issuing a political statement which had no application unless the individual was Dr. Patterson.

But their silence toward Ben is deafening as he beautifully exemplified (I'm not sure anyone could have done a better job if they set out to) one "who disparages the name of our Lord by appropriating venomous epithets against our brothers and sisters in Christ, and thus divides our fellowship by careless and unchaste speech" in his comment regarding Dr. Patterson.

I was the only voice cautioning his slander.

Now, I believe you are implying a double-standard on my part by not confronting those you claim have lied. CB, I have no evidence other than your word that they lied. Now who am I to believe? I choose to believe it is just different perspectives. Only those who were there know the truth of the matter, so I can not confront someone about something that is second-hearsay to me. It is not that I don't belive you...it is that I can't speak first-hand to it.

This is different from all of us reading firsthand what Ben wrote.

If I'm off the boat here...help me out. But this is what I understand you to be implying.
BR

brad reynolds said...

CB
Thanks for your kind spirit.

I have one question which was prompted by your comment. You said, "I know Ben is telling the truth!" and yet last night on the phone you agreed with me that some of the things he said of Patterson were NOT TRUE - how do you reconcile that my friend?

I trust you CB...but come on, you know some of those things were not true, so don't defend him for spouting veracity when you yourself know he didn't.

I love you and we shall rejoice in heaven, and I will always respect how you stood for truth. Keep Standing for it my friend:)
BR

sbc pastor said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
brad reynolds said...

CB
One last note.

I know Dr. Patterson very very well. I know him personally. I spent a lot of time in his house in the late 80s studying for exams at Criswell College. I consider his children good friends of mine. He has been a father in the ministry to me before he was to Ben. I have seen both his strengths and weaknesses.

I have watched him turn the other cheek time and time again as he still does with the blogger accusations. I have seen him pray for men who were out to get him! I have seen him show mercy to those who hated him. I have watched him and learned the true meaning of forgiveness. I was there at Criswell when he faced persecution (neither you nor Ben were), I was with him when he set foot on SE campus to a not so welcome reception. I longed for him to get those liberals for their attacks on him but he graciously forgave them.

Yes, I do know the truth. That's why I started this Blog.

Is he human...YES.
Does he have faults...you bet
Would I want to be as Christlike as He...without a doubt.
BR

sbc pastor said...

Former 2+2er,

Please let me begin by thanking you and encouraging you in your service to our Lord. I pray God’s blessings upon you, your family, and your ministry – may the Gospel go forth unhindered and may you receive fruit for your labor.

I too believe that there were “real problems” at the IMB (hopefully these have been addressed and will continue to be addressed if necessary).

In regard to your statement:

“There really was a de-emphasis on theological education, fuzzy definitions of a church, fuzziness over the role of women SCs and fuzziness on the parameters for partnerships with GCC partners. Pragmatism masked in the mantra of WIGTAKE (whatever it is going to take to see CPM) was the buzzword in those earlier days.”

Thank you for your willingness to speak the truth. I too have personally known several IMB missionaries with what I believe to be major theological problems. I personally know several (now former) IMB missionaries, which do not affirm inerrancy, which left the field when asked to affirm/sign the BF&M (Praise the Lord!).

However, I also know of at least one other (now former) IMB missionary, which does not affirm inerrancy, which signed the BF&M even though she did not agree with it in many places. Sadly, this individual served for several decades in a country with a large Muslim population and taught that Jesus was a descendent of Ishmael and not of Isaac. As a Southern Baptist pastor, I find these facts very disturbing.

Thank you for standing up for Dr. Eitel. I too believe that he is truly a kind and gracious man who loves the Lord, loves His Word, and desires that God’s will be done through the IMB. I only wish that we had more like him. God bless!!!

In Christ,
JLG

sbc pastor said...

Brad,

I appreciate you sharing about your personal relationship with Dr. Patterson. It is a stark contrast with that which has been told by others in the blogosphere. Thanks and God bless!!!

In Christ,
JLG

sbc pastor said...

Robin,

In regard to your question and comment:

“When are you going to post again? I am sure you have noticed that your thoughts are a help to many of us in understanding what we are facing. I know that by saying this I might be called a sbc pastor clone. So be it. After all, I am not is search of knowledge which is depressing to other bloggers.”

Thanks for your kind and gracious words. I too have enjoyed reading your thought-provoking posts and find that your perspective is much needed in the blogosphere (maybe that makes me a bro.robin.clone – so be it). I hope to post again first thing Monday morning. God bless!!!

In Christ,
JLG

CB Scott said...

OK BRAD,

Everything Ben is saying about this IMB thing and all that revolves around it is true. Wherein Ben mentions Dr. Patterson and Eitel relating to this is true.

IN ALL OF MY EXPERIENCE WITH BEN ANYTHING HE SIGNS HIS NAME TO CAN BE VALIDATED. UNLIKE SOME WE BOTH KNOW BEN IS RATHER FUNNY ABOUT WHAT HE PUTS IN PRINT BEING TRUE.

Ben does have issues with Dr. Patterson of which I know nothing about nor do you. Some things are none of my business. That which you speak of has nothing to do with the issue at hand. And, frankly I think what I actually said was that there must have been a conversation between Ben and Dr. Patterson of which I know nothing so I could not answer your question last night as could you not answer the question I asked you about a peson although you well know the answer.

You should not have brought Ben's name up today from our phone conversation last night as I DID NOT name the three monkey boys that lied to you. I respected their privacy even though they are liars. What is it with you Brad?

I was trying to back out of this without bruising anymore relationships.

Ben Cole was once a punk of first order and no one cared much about him except a few that could see through the garbage.

Karen and I spent hours and hours praying for him. We never stopped as we have not for many, many, rough hearted young men through the years.

It has been a ministry in our lives to befriend those (like I was and probably still am) outside the norm of Christian culture and help them along as much as possible.

We have watched Ben Cole grow up and become a real man and a man of God. He has gone out of his way to make things right with many people and he is no liar. He is rough as a tiger sharkn but God made a place for Tiger sharks too. Frankly, you ain't no daisy yourself.

I don't know what is between Dr. Patterson and Ben. Once I asked Dr.Patterson to lighten up on Ben and he said he did not think Ben Cole was even a Christian. I challenged him to his face on that and that was a bad day. If he or anyone says this is not true let me say God help you when we meet again.

Brad you owe Ben an apology on this one and in your gut you already know it. My goal in my last comment was to go away with a little honor for my rudeness before. I don't know this Green kid but he did not deserve me beating up on him so. I was ashamed and wanted to deal with that and admit you and I wer at an impass but I still wanted to be friends inspite of that and the fact that you walk with snakes everyday.

Again, you know nothing of Patterson and Cole and neither do I.

Ben and I were apart for one year and about six months without speaking during my exile from Baptist life after my being fired for telling the truth about another matter. I do not know all of what went on with him at SWBTS.

All I know is that when I called him about the IMB he came to help and alot of people owe him for what he has done. But like many before him we will probably burn him at the stake.

You need to make this right with Ben and you know it. You should not have brought our conversation up in such a way as you did especially within the context of what I was saying to you.

You can have the last word for the sake of your little groupies if that is what this was about. Being worshipped is hard to carry isn't it?

You know my email and phone and as the 80's prophet said: "You can find me in the darkness on the edge of town"
cb

brad reynolds said...

CB
I'm not much on defending myself...but you may want to reconsider your final comments, not for my sake but for the others you may have offended.

My bringing up the phone call was because you defended Ben and said He speaks truth. You and I both know some of the things he said were not true - and you shared that. This colors the rest of what he said.

If I offended you by bringing up our conversation, please forgive me, my friend. In retrospect, I should have e-mailed you to correct your comment rather than bring up our conversation here. For that I am sorry.

I know the IMB issues were theological not personal!

If I said something untrue of Ben...show me and I will gladly apologize to him.

God Bless you my brother.
BR

volfan007 said...

i wish that i could eat at the border sometime.

volfan007

just a few more hours until gator killing time.

volfan007 said...

also, if we meet at memphis to do some back room conspiracy making.. may i suggest that we eat at corky's bar b q? it's great.


brad,

keep on keeping us informed and sharing the truth amongst all this half truthes and extreme theology and whining and griping crowd spreading thier dissent. thanks for a great blog sight.

volfan007

dwm III said...

Brad,

You have put out two excellent posts the past two days. I have greatly enjoyed reading someone who is raising great questions and articulating them so well (something I lack).

Former 2+2er,

While personally I have never been to MLC (and never will), I would like to say that some good, trustworthy friends have told me about it.

One said they basically had modalism used to describe the trinity by someone who was heading out on the mission field. Nothing was said to them.

I had another friend who went through just recently and said things had changed dramatically. It was a great uplifting time and they heard nothing like what they had hear from previous MLCers.

The former would have been in 2003, the other within the past year. So, there has been a shift to white papers. Merely supporting your point.

CB,

You said to Brad: "Again, you know nothing of Patterson and Cole and neither do I."

This is what I don't get---no one knows what happened. I roomed with Ben in the fall of '98 and he was very much for Dr. Patterson. He told me a bunch of stories and it appeared to me (though I could have been duped) that he highly respected the man. Now, I hop into the blogosphere this past summer and BAM--there is Ben being critical of Dr. Patterson. Its got me wondering even though it is none of my business.

I owe a lot to Ben, he really showed me a lot the first semester I was at the college. Though, I could never read his humor (covered in sarcastic goo)....and sometimes it could be off-color as you probably know.

Anyways, as far as Mr. Greene goes. I worked with him at the library at SEBTS. He can be a little blunt, but overall he's a good Christian guy.

Brad,
Sorry about the size of the comment. Its my first time at your blog and I'm covering a lot of ground.

Dougald
(Always seeing pookas)

brad reynolds said...

Dougald,

Welcome
And please feel comfortable here. Thanks for your comment.
BR

brad reynolds said...

VolFan

Hope your gator gun is loaded...looks like you might be in for a fight:)
BR

CB Scott said...

Brad,

Call me a liar. Call me one without class. Call me a killer and a mad dog. But you can never call me a coward. So here goes.

You are right the problems at the IMB are theological and those problems do not fall in the lap of Dr. Patterson or little Keith Eitel. They do not really fall squarely in the lap of Jerry Rankin.

The theological problems at the IMB fall solidly on the shoulders of the Boot-Strapping Boloney-Eating-do nothing-shallow headed trustees that were supposed to be standing in the gap for all Southern Baptist.

They did not do their jobs because they were too busy thinking of their new found importance and their great future now that they had arrived.

In falling down in their accountability the MLC became a mess for a period of time. It is now much better as everyone knows.

At the same time there is a paper trail that gives evidence that there were personal matters of a negitive scope between Dr Patterson and Dr. Rankin prior to 2003 even as far back as 1993.

As there is a trustee problem now there was one then.

THIS IS NOT TO SAY THAT ALL HAVE BEEN OR ARE BAD IN WHAT THEY DO.

The problem was and is that enough were and are BAD to cause great problems.

We elect trustees to deal with problems and when they don't the cows run off and the barn is left full of manure and it always stinks.

And what happens to the milk producing cows? Wolves eat them or trucks splatter them all over the interstate.

So, Brad you are right. It is theological and you now have my take as to why it is. It is also personal and you cannot deny the paper trail from either side can you?

The bottom line is those that we entrust with the care of our institutions should do their jobs and stop thinking they are there to hobnob, get better churches, and in some cases get a job at the institution of which they have been entrusted to watch for us.

Now you understand why I may be a fool but no coward for I just spoke hard of some lazy trustees. Remember that I said there are many that try to do a good job. Thank God for those. Just think where we would be without them.

Do with this as you will, but trustees in several of our institutions need to cowboy up and do what we elected them to do and stop playing raindeer games. Our barns stink and our cows are getting killed.

I know you can't really respond to what I have said because of your position so I take it for granted you will understand where I am coming from on this, but for sure I am right.

I am truly sorry we find ourselves where we do in this thing. I had hoped for us to lay this down as something we canot see eye to eye about. Thank you for saying you should have emailed me. Forgive me for saying anything at all.

cb

brad reynolds said...

CB
You know me well enough to know you needn't ask forgiveness for anything my friend.

I think we can agree we don't see eye to eye. That's ok. You still stand for inerrancy and are against widening the tent. You stand firm for abstinance and against women pastors. Your theology is about as impeccable as anyone's.

I know you think I don't know all there is and I think you've been hoodwinked. Either way...truth has a way of finding its way to the surface.

I'm sure there is a lot of dirty laundry amongst many of our leaders, just as I am chief of sinners. Sadly, I know some things of personal heroes of mine (who are now in glory) that would curl the hair on Cher's head. I have no desire in seeing laundry aired and get sick to my stomach when I see it. I have a tough time believing Christ is pleased with such tantrums by His children. Perhaps I come across too strong when I see such (and you are not who I'm talking about at all).

I'm ok with truth aired which builds up the kingdom...I'm ok with truth that identifies theological errors. I'm not ok with personal attacks (something the devil is known to do as the great accuser). And I think I know you well enough to know you don't approve of that either. Help me if you see me doing that in my zeal.

Finally, I'm not one who believes in Trustee micro-management. Thus, I think it is the administration's job to deal with theological error...not the Trustees. It is their job to make sure the administration deals with it or get a new administration. There in lies the crux.

Roll Tide:) - I think you were a 'BAMA man, but I could be recalling erroneously.
BR

sbc pastor said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
sbc pastor said...

Brad,

In regard to your comment:

"I'm not one who believes in Trustee micro-management. Thus, I think it is the administration's job to deal with theological error...not the Trustees. It is their job to make sure the administration deals with it or get a new administration. There in lies the crux."

I agree wholeheartedly. In my understanding (please correct me if I am wrong), the trustee system is designed to hold the administration accountable to the convention as a whole. Individual SBC church members can, and should, address their concerns and questions to a member, or members, of the Board of Trustees of that particular SBC entity. Thus, individual Southern Baptists, including Dr. Patterson, have both the right and the responsibility to address any and all concerns or questions that they may have to the trustee(s) of an SBC entity. That is completely appropriate. Perhaps the problem is that many Southern Baptists (church members, pastors, and even bloggers) do not understand how the trustee system is designed to operate. God bless!!!

In Christ,
JLG

PS - Go Big Blue!!!

brad reynolds said...

JLG
You said:
"Perhaps the problem is that many Southern Baptists (church members, pastors, and even bloggers) do not understand how the trustee system is designed to operate. God bless!!!"

I think this is more true than you realize. I spoke to some IMB Trustees this week and they told me some of their colleagues don't understand it.

In fact, believe it or not one IMB Trustee believes in going to the convention through blogs for policy decisions rather than allowing Trustees to handle policy.

I could just see one of our Trustees at SE taking our handbook and complaining to the convention about our dress requirements (why, we are narrowing the tent - how dare we exclude students who don't wear pants! - wearing pants is not a requirement of the BFM2K - STOP Narrowing the TENT! :)

Honestly, could you imagine taking the policies of SE handbook to the convention floor? Talk about some disagreement!!! There is a reason we have Trustees!BR

brad reynolds said...

oh yea!
Hook em Horns:)

CB Scott said...

BRAD,

At the end of the day let me say we will disagree about much in these matters. That is the substance of my first post. I want to end this between us not because I think you are right or because I have no fight left. I will probably be fighting somewhere on the day I die. It has been my lot in life before and after conversion.

I want to end it because we both are not going to back down. We both believe that which we have said to be true.

I think you see what I am saying about trustees being the bottom line. They are our gatekeepers.

In the last paragraph prior to commending the great TIDE you stated that which if I understand you correctly is exactly what I am talking about. You are right as rain about trustee responsibility. I have been one and I know the responsibility. One problem has been in the area of trustee integrity. There has been a great lack of it in some places. Now, if I understand you correctly we can agree here.

cb

brad reynolds said...

CB
We are good. I have no desire to fight you...and if I did, I'd rather do it electronically than in person. I haven't forgotten your strength, experience and build:)

I can live with your assessment of Trustees simply because of those you know, have known and possibly served with. In my limited personal knowledge of Trustees of SB institutions I haven't come across any of the "rascals" - (I can't remember how you say it - "boot-wrestling something") but I'm sure they exist. And anyone who serves in any position with pride is in sin.

God Bless
BR

CB Scott said...

Brad,

Let me personalize it with one name if you permit.

If every board had trustees with the kind of integrity that Ned Matthews always presented at all times we would not have many of the problems we are experiencing today in so many places.

cb

brad reynolds said...

CB
AGREED!!!
BR

Grosey's Messages said...

Brad, CB, thankyou for the way that you have both worked towards reconciliation even though you strongly disagree on issues and their interpretation. It is a mark of your godliness, and your courage of conviction that you can do that. I guess, on reflection, it may have been better sorted in the back room at Borders!
But thank you both for your truly irenic purpose within your dispute.

Anonymous said...

Brad,
I am an IMB personnel who is in a restricted coutnry and have tried to wirte you att he Southeastern address posted on their website and the spam guard intercepted and returned it. How I can I reach you without posting on the net.

Anonymous said...

PS Actually I sent you three - however the first one explained the other two and so you may be perplexed by that. From the IMB M in restricted Access country

Anonymous said...

PS Actually I sent you three - however the first one explained the other two and so you may be perplexed by that. The first bounced back (5 times so far) but the other two did not so I am not sure what is up. From the IMB M in restricted Access country

brad reynolds said...

anonymous
Got your e-mails. Will respond soon.

Grosey
Thank you. I find that Blogs are a different world. So many times what we say is seen by others and taken in a way never intended by us. I constanly have to re-write things and even then fail so often expressing in ways that is as inoffensive as possible my thoughts.

I do think Blogs can be used beneficially or I would not have one but it is difficult choosing the right words.

Thanks for the encouragement,
BR

volfan007 said...

i hope we can now move beyond this subject to something else. iam growing a little weary of all this talk about trustees; arent you? let's talk of something else now. also, do any of the rest of you see all these pooka's, or is it just me? i am starting to get a little freaked out.

volfan007

brad reynolds said...

VolFan
I promised to publish Eitel's two letters and then we will get into tongues:)
BR

sbc pastor said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
sbc pastor said...

Brad,

I truly hope that you are planning a discussion and not a demonstration ;-). I look forward to reading Eitel’s two letters. God bless!!!

In Christ,
JLG

PS - How bout them Cowboys!

Bkyoung said...

Brad,

I just got back into town and have to share some of the details of my trip home with you. I left here on Fri. morning and got to MCV to visit my Grandfather about 2 in the afternoon. I spent the rest of the day there and all of Sat. Today I went to church and then to visit Grandpa before coming back down here. He is now doing great his mind is doing great and his doctor (who I just met today) told me they would be moving him from the CCU to a regular room tonight, and they would have him starting to get up and walk for excercise starting tomm. I later went down to the McDonalds in the lobby to get some lunch. While sitting there the doctor walked in and saw me. He came over to talk, during our conversation He told me that when my grandfather had first come in He would not have given him a 10% chance of making it (he was that bad off) and he could not explain the recovery. I could not belive that this opportunity was presenting itself so I told him I could explain it. Well to cut to the chase we now have a new brother in Christ. His name is Andrew and he is a cardiologist in Richmond Va. I just want to share this awesome experience with you. Give me a call maybe we can go eat lunch at the Border (or would we get in trouble for that these days?).

Marveling in His awesomeness,

Brian Young

P.S. again thank you to all who have had my Grandfather and family in your prayers.

sbc pastor said...

Brian,

Praise the Lord!!! Isn't it amazing how God can work all things together for good? He didn't just save one life... but two! Thanks for sharing and God bless!!!

In Christ,
JLG

volfan007 said...

brian,

amen, bro.! that's good news.

volfan007

ps. do the rest of you see the pooka's in this blog room, or is it just me? i hope yall see them too.

brad reynolds said...

Brian
What a testimony!!! We will be in touch this week...I'm headed to Charleston to teach today but will be on campus tomorrow!

Praise God...I am so thrilled at how God is using you. Could you have ever imagined all these doors He is openning for you. God has really used you - thank for your passion for Christ.
BR

brad reynolds said...

Jeremy the closest I could come to a demonstration of tongues electronicly is:

vbswbfbfveirurhhqjbfbuhhuji4qu3fkfjbiutt

Therefore it will be a discussion:)

Now don't anyone get offended I was just kidding with Jeremy. Please understand it as the joke it was intended to be:)

Also - Dallas...Dallas Cowboys!
BR

tim rogers said...

Brothers and Sisters,

I'm baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaack!
After a couple of days to lick some wounds received from another blog that brought false accusations against me and I responded in a heated exchange, I decided to take a few days away from the blog world. However, refreshment in God's Word and His moving in the midst of our congregation has rejuvinated me once again. I am reminded of the verse in Nehemiah; "the joy of the Lord is my stength."

Brother Brian,
Praise God. You were used to change a heart Dr.'s heart. I am praying for your Grandfathers full recovery.

Volfan,
Forgive my ignorance to Tennessee lingo, but What is a pooka?:>) Is that anything like a pluperfect verb in Greek? It doesn't show up enough for anyone to enter into a real discussion.

Brother JLG,
I will call you, I just haven't had a chance yet. I am okay with you and pray you are with me. I'll call and we'll do lunch. Have your people call my people:>) You probably should have invited Ben to sit with you in chapel last Thursday.

Brother Brad,
I find it amazing that those who champion principled dissent, desire to paint Dr. Eitel in the light they do. I also find it interesting that some who desire a voice against narrowing parameters speak nothing about the parameters that are being narrowed. Some speak about commodes, places where people eat, and other things trying to move from the issue, but what has been presented where parameters are being narrowed? Tongues? I think not. The NAMB had a stricter policy on tounges before the IMB and no one presented the NAMB as trying to narrow the parameters.

Blessings,
Tim

brad reynolds said...

Jeremy
One last note. Lest anyone claim I demonstrated without interpretation. The interpretation is:

"Dallas Cowboys 27, Washington Redskins 10"

BR

brad reynolds said...

Tim
Good to have you back my friend.

The blog world is a different world. But god is good.

Excellent point about the substance of the principled dissent and how they get upset if someone like Dr. Eitel writes about his principled dissent.
BR

tim rogers said...

Brother Brad,

Also, you are now in North Carolina not Texas. It is now ACC and Carolina Panthers, not some fly by night conference that lures away our coaches with oil money in order to build their conference's reputation. Also, Carolina Panthers are a football team, not some super star soaked rag tag bunch that has the coach checking with the owner before deciding which play to run. Just the facts ma'am. (All in good fun brother)

Blessings,
Tim

dwm III said...

volfan,

I recommend Happy Dale to you. I hear its a pretty good institution. :)

dwmiii

tim rogers said...

Brother Brad,

Get ready! Check our Micah Fries' latest blog post. San Anton will be interesting.

http://friesville.net/blog/?p=559

I am sorry but you will have to copy and paste

Blessings,
Tim

sbc pastor said...

Tim,

We're okay, but I do look forward to hearing from you. In regard to lunch, that sounds great. However, I'm not sure that I want to be seen at some greasy spoon restaurant in Wake Forest. I was always partial to the "Full Moon" cafe off of 1A myself, but my wife’s favorite was "Sweet Tomatoes." If you make your way to Waco, I'll take you to lunch at the Lake Brazos Steakhouse. BTW, Ben was more than welcome to sit next to me at chapel. Dwight McKissic had already sat down in the seat right in front of me, thus they would have had a great opportunity to “convince” me of some things :0). God bless!!!

In Christ,
JLG

volfan007 said...

tim,
is not a pooka a large rabbit that walks upright and talks like a man? we have one in this blog.

dwm,

i am just joking, of course. i hope you know that and was just joking back. i was referring to harveytherabbit. have you ever seen harvey?


volfan007

HarveyTheRabbitt said...

VOLFAN007,

Why bring me back into the mix? I have tried to keep quiet and not become troublesome. But now you bring out of the shadows. Hear is my advise on the whole thing.
If you are a conservative evangelical go have a sweet tea at your favorite place. If not a conservative go join the other blogger boys and have a stronger drink as suggested in Greensboro earlier this year.

Harvey

volfan007 said...

harvey,

just how tall are you? does one have to drink alcohol to actually see you? just wondering.

i am not one of the wine and cheese crowd. i dont drink moonshine either. i do like pepsi though.

brad,

have you noticed that a certain blogger is upset that people are upset with him? he is complaining that people are calling him a liberal, or a trouble maker, or whatever. even though he has attacked sbc leaders left and right...talks about welcoming moderates who voted with the liberals during the conservative resurgence....says that drinking alcohol is ok...promotes five point calvinism, etc. what did he think people would say and think after all that?

volfan007

volfan007 said...

harvey,

just how tall are you? does one have to drink alcohol to actually see you? just wondering.

i am not one of the wine and cheese crowd. i dont drink moonshine either. i do like pepsi though.

brad,

have you noticed that a certain blogger is upset that people are upset with him? he is complaining that people are calling him a liberal, or a trouble maker, or whatever. even though he has attacked sbc leaders left and right...talks about welcoming moderates who voted with the liberals during the conservative resurgence....says that drinking alcohol is ok...promotes five point calvinism, etc. what did he think people would say and think after all that?

volfan007

brad reynolds said...

Tim
Concerning Texas Football - Two Wrods = "National Champions." Ok maybe maybe 5 more words - "Six Time Super-Bowl Champions."

Hope this helps:)

I heard of McKissic's letter yesterday. My thoughts...it will push a motion from the floor to change the BFM to include a statement affirming the histoirc position of SB against the practice of tongues. The exact opposite will be pressed from the floor. The executive committee will ignore both.

Volfan
I've seen that. What's interesting is he feels the need to deny he is a liberal. I personally don't feel that need. I wonder why he does?
By the way even if a liberal existed in the SBC they have to deny they are liberal, otherwise they have no hearing.
BR

tim rogers said...

Brother Brad,

Ok, good words.

McKissic's motion is not something that needs to be debated on the floor of the convention. Reason: it will be debated from a cessassionist vs. continualist theological view. That being said, the media will pick it up and point to the SBC as narrowing the fellowship of churches. There are essentials that we all must affirm to be Southern Baptist and I do not believe disagreeing over whether the Gifts of the Spirit has ceased or not is one of them. However, as Southern Baptist, when we send money to agencies we have the right to narrow parameters to any point we deem necessary in order to better voice what the majority of Southern Baptist believe. While I am not able to direct a sister into a more narrow parameter she must remain within, I am able to direct an agency THROUGH THE TRUSTEE SYSTEM my money is supporting through the CP. That is what makes me Southern Baptist.

Blessings,
Tim

HarveyTheRabbitt said...

VOLFAN007,

I am 6' tall. Did you not see my movie with Jimmy Stuart???

And NO you do not have to be an alcoholic like the liberals to see me. Brad has seen me although he probably does not remember it.

Don't let those rasscally liberals get to you down. God is still in control.

Harvey

(peace out)

Cliff4JC said...

That's 5 time Superbowl Champions!!! You are getting ahead of yourself a bit there buddy! You are tied with my Steelers and the Niners! Should we mentioned that the Steelers are 2-1 against your Broke Back Cowriders in the big one? :)

BTW...just went looking through my old SEBTS directory...guess who I found there? Yep...twas you. We were probably classmates. I really can't remember you though. You were probably the eager beaver sitting up front sucking up while I was the slacker in the back not paying attention enough!

You guys obsess to much over Tounges! I would love to see a real pole of SBCers in the pews on whether they support the new IMB policies. I bet you would be surprised...and I guess shocked at how small the margin of victory would be. Not a convention vote; I know how that would go. But, convention goers are NOT average SBCers! Just a thought.

Joy,
Cliff

brad reynolds said...

Cliff
I think you would be surprised at the vote. The grey-hairs know who SB are and who we have always been.

Concerning the Cowboys. I was counting this year. They have been more than any team and was as much as any team - why? They are America's Team!!!
BR

sbc pastor said...

I believe that the vote would be roughly the same as... the vote on the alcohol resolution :0). God bless!!!

In Christ,
JLG

Cliff4JC said...

at the convention...yes...the vote would be strong against tounges.

However, MOST baptists have never been to a convention. Put the new IMB policies to a vote from the pews on any given Sunday service. I think that vote (while impossible) would be surprising to the SBC leadership. Yes, the "gray hairs" know well what involved convention goers will vote for what they won't vote for. I agree. The leadership of the convention revolves around it. But, the average SBC church member is not a convention goer.

America's team? LOL I didn't know a man with a Phd could be so dilussional!

Joy,
Cliff

Jonny V said...

Brad,

You said, "By the way even if a liberal existed in the SBC they have to deny they are liberal, otherwise they have no hearing."

I like what Dr. Criswell said back in the day.

"Liberals? Moderates? A skunk by any other name still stinks."

Classic!

As for this Cowboys, Steelers discussion - wasn't it a certain team from Jacksonville that administered spankings on national TV to both recently?

:-)