tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post116951807909474264..comments2023-08-21T09:15:59.650-05:00Comments on Guardian Ministries: Should our Seminaries be like the Baptist Theological Seminary at Richmond?brad reynoldshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01449596955689180340noreply@blogger.comBlogger117125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-53347878075729909082008-01-29T12:54:00.000-05:002008-01-29T12:54:00.000-05:00Brad,I struggle with:1 - the idea that seems to wa...Brad,<BR/><BR/>I struggle with:<BR/><BR/>1 - the idea that seems to want to equates the seminary to the church.<BR/><BR/>2 - the idea that teaching the Hebrew language in a seminary is equal with preparing them for the pastorate.<BR/><BR/>3 - the fact that we are willing to take the money of women and teach them great things and enable them to be more than qualified to teach, then tell them to be quiet. Why did Criswell College train (BA and Masters degrees) Dr. Klouda? To prepare her for what? Why did SWBTS take her money and give her a doctorate to later tell her it is no good here (my words and take on the action)?<BR/><BR/>Man, you know me, I am not one to push to broaden the tent but to compare the keeping of Dr. Klouda to being like BTSR is way off.Jon L. Esteshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13197096460227507823noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-46338844782132071612007-01-31T21:37:00.000-05:002007-01-31T21:37:00.000-05:00Brad,
I'd be happy to. Your profile does not cont...Brad,<br />I'd be happy to. Your profile does not contain an email address, so here is mine dcockes@sbcv.org. <br /><br />Blessings, Don CockesAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-14340992368561536862007-01-31T09:56:00.000-05:002007-01-31T09:56:00.000-05:00Don
Glad you stopped by my brother. I pray all i...Don <br />Glad you stopped by my brother. I pray all is well. Since this blog has to do with my personal opinions and not the opinions of the church I pastor I felt it would be best to handle your comment via e-mail. Please send it to me and I will be glad to respond.<br />BRbrad reynoldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01449596955689180340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-70643030195333322632007-01-30T18:21:00.000-05:002007-01-30T18:21:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1169872254348652522007-01-26T23:30:00.000-05:002007-01-26T23:30:00.000-05:00Brad,Did you read my last comment? If so you have ...Brad,<BR/><BR/>Did you read my last comment? If so you have the answer to your question.<BR/><BR/>My position is much stronger than yours about who should teach various disciplines in seminaries. <BR/><BR/>You have avoided my questions more than once. Or maybe you are not reading them. I hope it is the latter.<BR/><BR/>Again, I said to teach languages would be OK for a women to teach in our seminaries. (BTW, you do not have to tell me what a dead language is. I can go toe to toe with you any day there, Dr. Reynolds.)<BR/><BR/>I identified Languages (Both biblical and contemporary) as teachable for women. I state my position very plainly. On the other hand, do you believe a man with little or no pastoral experience should teach in the pastoral disciplines?<BR/><BR/>One more thing about Bible being taught in seminaries: It should be in the core curriculum of EVERY seminary degree that Bible should be taken every semester. This survey method employed in our seminaries is poor. To allow the Bible to be an elective beyond the core survey classes is a shame and disgrace. <BR/><BR/>Furthermore, It should be a man that has preached the Bible as a pastor in a local church that teaches those type classes.<BR/><BR/>To teach the "mechanics" of a "dead" language is very different than teaching the Bible in an exegetical, hermeneutical, and expositional manner. Anyone that has taken more than a core curriculum survey of the Bible recognizes the truth of that very easily.<BR/><BR/>One of the problems in the field is that pastors do not preach the Bible because they are not educated in what the Bible says.<BR/><BR/>Far too many of these guys that are so called "great language professors" cannot convey the Scripture in an expositional manner before an average congregation if their lives depended on it, and frankly, someone's life always depends on it.<BR/><BR/>We need MEN that have spent their lives with the Bible, both preaching it and living it to teach the Bible in the disciplines I mentioned earlier.<BR/><BR/>Do you agree or disagree?<BR/><BR/>The Klouda issue is not about what she taught. It is about what we as her brothers and sisters are teaching others by either being involved in what happened to her or by sitting by and letting it happen.<BR/><BR/>There is always a "hidden curriculum" taught during seminary days and sometimes it "sticks" with us more than the planned scope and sequence of the classes we take to get a degree.<BR/><BR/>What are the hidden lessons our students have or will have learned from this situation we find ourselves in relating to Dr. Sheri Klouda?<BR/><BR/>Brad, please rethink this with Christian compassion and godly sorrow. Are we straining at gnats and swallowing camels? What about mercy, grace, kindness, and gentleness toward this woman and family? Please don't tell me she got a nice severance from the seminary. Dignity has a far greater worth than money to a honorable person and for those who do not understand that concept, they will learn it someday. You can take that to the bank.<BR/><BR/>cbCB Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02230652312241919771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1169850226593905872007-01-26T17:23:00.000-05:002007-01-26T17:23:00.000-05:00CBI agree with the practices of our seminaries.My ...CB<BR/><BR/>I agree with the practices of our seminaries.<BR/><BR/>My question for you. Do you think that a woman should teach pastors the Scriptures?<BR/><BR/>Would you agree that the best way to teach a dead language (one which is not spoken - thus conversational teaching does not occur) is by having them read the language? Would you not agree that the best place to read Biblical Hebrew would be the Bible? Would you not agree that correcting students as they read the Hebrew Bible is teaching them the Scriptures?<BR/><BR/>Just so you know where I stand my brother. I think my logic as well as the logic of our seminary Presidents flows well.<BR/>BRbrad reynoldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01449596955689180340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1169849710128786622007-01-26T17:15:00.000-05:002007-01-26T17:15:00.000-05:00Brad,Thank you for affirming my appreciation of yo...Brad,<BR/><BR/>Thank you for affirming my appreciation of your colleagues there at SEBTS. I do consider them all "TOP DRAWER":-)<BR/><BR/><BR/>Now, Brad, I did not say women should be able to teach in ALL disciplines of seminary life. I do not even believe ALL men are able to teach any discipline in seminary. You may or may not have heard me state my position relating to that matter when we were together there.<BR/><BR/>I do not believe a man with little or no experience as a pastor should teach in any discipline that relates DIRECTLY to the ministry of a pastor. One cannot truly teach others of that to which he knows little or nothing from experience. That is an area of weakness, in particular, of our institutions and it is having an effect in the church fields of the SBC.<BR/><BR/>Therefore, due to the fact that I do not believe a woman is a biblical candidate for the role of pastor in the local church, it stands to reason that I do not believe a woman should teach any discipline that is DIRECTLY related to the position of local church pastor.<BR/><BR/>Not all disciplines taught at seminary relate DIRECTLY to the position of local church pastor. Some disciplines such as Christian music, Languages,(both biblical and contemporary) Counseling,(not pastoral counseling) Christian Education, Christian School Administration and Christian School teaching, etc. can be taught by women if the woman teaches from a proper biblical worldview. <BR/><BR/>If she teaches from a biblical worldview she must address Scripture and theology as it applies to the discipline she teaches. If she does not do so, she should be fired and be replaced by a woman or man that will address Scripture and theology while teaching a seminary discipline from the position of a biblical worldview.<BR/><BR/>My logic will not allow a woman to teach ALL disciplines in a seminary setting. My logic will not allow any man to teach ALL disciplines in a seminary. <BR/><BR/>I do not believe pastoral counseling should be taught by a man that has little or no experience as a full-time pastor.<BR/>Again, NO MAN with little or no experience as a pastor should teach ANY discipline that relates directly to the position of local church pastor.<BR/><BR/>My logic would eliminate many men teaching pastoral disciplines today. I will honor your desire to name no one, but a review of seminary faculties will reveal what I am speaking of relating to those teaching without proper experience. The greater understanding of the position is gained on the "hard rock" of experience. <BR/><BR/>How can a man truly teach of going where he has never been? From books? From stories of others that have been in the field? Not hardly. To teach pastoral disciplines you have to have "been there." <BR/><BR/>There is a great problem out in the field due to young pastors having been taught the disciplines of a pastor from someone that speaks only from theories and books. <BR/><BR/>There is really a great problem in the area of pastoral counseling out in the field due to pastors being taught that particular discipline by those that have no experience as a pastor.<BR/><BR/>So, Brad, my position on who teaches what is stronger than many we both know, is it not?<BR/><BR/>The issue is not who teaches what. The issue is an issue of Christian ethics in the actions of Christians toward another Christian. Plain and simple, that is all there is to it. No number of "strawmen" built by anyone will erase that reality which is before us as Southern Baptists.<BR/><BR/>cbCB Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02230652312241919771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1169839037542411022007-01-26T14:17:00.000-05:002007-01-26T14:17:00.000-05:00CliffI think the same could be said (inconsistent)...Cliff<BR/><BR/>I think the same could be said (inconsistent) even more forcefully for those who believe only men should pastor but women can teach them how to pastor at our seminaries.<BR/><BR/>Also, if I may be so bold let me recommend white socks and clorox bleach for your top drawer:)<BR/>BRbrad reynoldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01449596955689180340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1169838700411745712007-01-26T14:11:00.000-05:002007-01-26T14:11:00.000-05:00Dr. Reynolds,I'm not saying I'm much better, (shoo...Dr. Reynolds,<BR/><BR/>I'm not saying I'm much better, (shoot, I don't even have a position on this yet!), but you are doing some hermeneutical & logical gymnastics with your rationale of why women can teach in some areas of seminary and where they can't. :) Again, at least you know what you believe here my friend...so you are probably doing better than a waffler like me! LOL<BR/><BR/>Still searching...<BR/><BR/>One other thing; did CB just call Dr. Alvin Reid, and the rest of the faculty at SEBTS a bunch of dingy socks? (That's what’s in my top drawer CB! :) Sorry, it's my day off...I'm feeling silly.<BR/><BR/>Joy,<BR/>CliffCliff4JChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16919731983447652303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1169825915851629342007-01-26T10:38:00.000-05:002007-01-26T10:38:00.000-05:00Brad: Went over and visited Bart's site. Very inte...Brad: Went over and visited Bart's site. Very interesting angle on how to handle issues with which we are in conflict. Integrity.<BR/><BR/>By the way, I've posted a blog from which I'd love to have the input of women. Especially your lovely wife who's just found out the immense joy of motherhood. (and a few quirky things that aren't so joyous...sleep deprivation). When she gets a moment between loving on Kelton and assuring you that you are the main man in her life, perhaps she can take a peek and respond. Thanks. SelahVAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1169824405305582382007-01-26T10:13:00.000-05:002007-01-26T10:13:00.000-05:00I find it refreshing when Southern Baptists who bl...I find it refreshing when Southern Baptists who blog make an assertion as if it were fact, are then proven wrong, and humbly acknowledge their error.<BR/><BR/>A missionary in the Middle East asked you on your last post(seventh comment down) if, <I>"after discovering Burleson's bog is correct</I> (see <A HREF="http://www.abpnews.com/1646.article" REL="nofollow">here</A>, <I>will you be working to resolve the injustice?"</I><BR/><BR/>A good question. Sometimes we Southern Baptist lose sight of people who have been hurt in order to simply promote our ideology. Graced people have soft hearts. We have a fund established to help Dr. Klouda. I would encourage you and your readers to help.<BR/><BR/>Blessings,<BR/><BR/>Wade Burlesonwadeburleson.orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09712009938843809657noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1169821026816614852007-01-26T09:17:00.000-05:002007-01-26T09:17:00.000-05:00My brother Bart BarberI read your blog this mornin...My brother Bart Barber<BR/><BR/>I read your blog this morning (along with some of my other favorites). Thank you for your Christian example. Others could learn from it. <BR/>BRbrad reynoldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01449596955689180340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1169820287021958932007-01-26T09:04:00.001-05:002007-01-26T09:04:00.001-05:00TCConsistency is the KEY.To claim that only men sh...TC<BR/>Consistency is the KEY.<BR/><BR/>To claim that only men should be pastors and then have women teach men how to be pastors is inconsistent. Thank God our seminaries are not inconsistent like that.<BR/><BR/>Further, the it appears to me that the seminaries’ not permitting a woman to teach men how to pastor is not necessarily based on 1 Tim. 2:12 but rather on the belief that men should be pastors…thus the point made about teaching is not necessarily applicable. Although I would state it is my opinion that women should teach men in a local church.<BR/><BR/>Finally, my office is in Broyhill (Where the music faculty are); I eat with music faculty at least once a week; and we do discuss issues. Point being I am familiar with the curriculum. And while you may disagree I would state that a “theology of worship” is not the same as Systematic Theology and the study of hymns is not the same as the study of Scripture…but if you believe they are the same then as a good Baptist I say, so be it, as I affirm soul-competency.<BR/>BRbrad reynoldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01449596955689180340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1169820264815887042007-01-26T09:04:00.000-05:002007-01-26T09:04:00.000-05:00CBI gladly will state you have held my colleagues ...CB<BR/>I gladly will state you have held my colleagues in high esteem here. You always have. I am just uncomfortable with naming colleagues here.<BR/><BR/>According to your logic women should teach in all areas of seminary, for all areas deal with Scripture to a certain degree, and seminaries are parachurch organizations – although they are unlike most other parachurch organizations for their bosses are the local churches of the SBC. <BR/><BR/>Let’s just say I disagree, I don’t think women should teach men how to pastor. Let me state I affirm our seminaries in this area and would disagree with BTSR who would agree with you on this and you know it my brother.<BR/>BRbrad reynoldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01449596955689180340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1169819538937100192007-01-26T08:52:00.000-05:002007-01-26T08:52:00.000-05:00JeffroGood WordsBRJeffro<BR/>Good Words<BR/>BRbrad reynoldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01449596955689180340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1169817311694650332007-01-26T08:15:00.000-05:002007-01-26T08:15:00.000-05:00Brad, Here is the problem with this situation, and...Brad, <BR/><BR/>Here is the problem with this situation, and the problem that recurs in denominational life: Inconsistency!!!<BR/><BR/>I have no problem with determining from Scripture that a woman should not teach a man! The Bible teaches this. I do have a problem with the lack of consistentcy in which this is being applied. <BR/><BR/>1. You state that the passage teaches the situation of a local church and since the seminary teaches pastors, then it should follow the spirit of scripture. Great, but the Bible also says "teach or have authority" PLEASE do not gloss over the text. If we are going to be consistent, there should be not 1 female sitting as a trustee of any SBC entity. This is a position of authority. If you are going make all seminaries accuntable to this text, do it with consistentcy. <BR/><BR/>2. You stated: "And I think the teaching of others' inspired words (hymns) is simply not the same as teaching God's inspired Word."<BR/><BR/>Brad, I am not using this word pejoratively, but are you that ignorant what is taught in the music department? Please go over to the book store and look at the books that are prescribed for the classes that a future pastors take on worship and music. You do not sit in class for an hour learning "words to hymns". There definitly is a theology of worship and it is taught! <BR/><BR/>TCAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1169784559068601672007-01-25T23:09:00.000-05:002007-01-25T23:09:00.000-05:00Brad,I know you read my comments, but for the reco...Brad,<BR/><BR/>I know you read my comments, but for the record please let it be known that all the personalities I spoke of at SEBTS was in a good light. I think the professors I mentioned are "top drawer" so I would ask you to acknowledge that fact.<BR/><BR/>Now, I am sticking to the issues. The comparison of TBSR to any of our seminaries is without merit. It would even be without merit to compare TBSR with the old SEBTS. Our seminaries are actually seminaries. The other is questionable at best.<BR/><BR/>Your speaking of the seminary at Richmond clouds the real issue. The real issue is the questionable ethics of SWBTS in relation to Dr. Klouda. <BR/><BR/>My mentioning of the fact of any seminary discipline being taught by a seminary professor having to address Scripture and theology is valid. We teach a biblical world view in all of our seminaries. Therefore, ALL professors must address both Scripture and theology. If they do not they should be fired.<BR/><BR/>Your speaking of the "degree" to which they speak of Scripture and theology is not the point. The Bible does not speak to degrees or amounts of Scripture or theology a woman can teach in a seminary. It does not speak to teaching in a seminary in any chapter or verse.<BR/><BR/>A seminary is a parachurch organization. It is not a local church. The probitions of women in in positions are related to the local church.<BR/><BR/>You know my position on women pastors and deacons. It is like yours. We are not talking about a pastor or a deacon in a local church. We are talking about the treatment of a Christian by other Christians in a parachurch organization. <BR/><BR/>A seminary is not an extention of a local church. It is a parachurch entity established to teach the disciplines of ministry to those that seek to minister in and through the local church. A seminary that seeks to be a local church would cease to function in the manner for which it was established.<BR/><BR/>Only a local church can be a local church. Seminary presidents are not pastors and faculty members are not deacons.<BR/><BR/>When Faith teams go out from the seminary to evangelize the community they seek to get those that come to faith in Christ to join one of the local churches in the area. They do not ask the new believer to join the seminary. <BR/><BR/>Could the seminary baptize the new convert in accordance with Scripture? NO. That is the commission of a local church. <BR/><BR/>A seminary is a parachurch institution established for the training of those called to minister in the local church and through the local church. It is not an extension of a local church. It is not a local church.<BR/><BR/>It does not function like a local church, but it is to operate within the moral and ethical manner as taught by the local church. What has happened in this situation is far from what a local church would teach as Christian conduct. (A true N.T. church is of what I speak)<BR/><BR/>This is not about TBSR vs. Six real SBC seminaries. It is about the ethical treatment of our brothers and sisters in the "market place" of life.<BR/><BR/>cbCB Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02230652312241919771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1169781423666267972007-01-25T22:17:00.000-05:002007-01-25T22:17:00.000-05:00SelahThanks:)I have been sitting by my wife and ho...Selah<BR/>Thanks:)<BR/>I have been sitting by my wife and holding Kelton tonight (which makes for slow typing, especially since I am also trying to read as well as watch the movie Simon Birch:)<BR/>BRbrad reynoldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01449596955689180340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1169781349202060192007-01-25T22:15:00.000-05:002007-01-25T22:15:00.000-05:00DavidTruly SadBRDavid<BR/>Truly Sad<BR/>BRbrad reynoldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01449596955689180340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1169781173571352152007-01-25T22:12:00.001-05:002007-01-25T22:12:00.001-05:00hey brad,now, over at another blog that you dont l...hey brad,<BR/><BR/>now, over at another blog that you dont like to be mentioned, a fella is saying that 1 tim. 2 is talking about women needing to teach men correctly. lol. so, as long as they are teaching the bible correctly, its ok.<BR/><BR/>our culture is really reeking havoc on our churches.<BR/><BR/>davidvolfan007https://www.blogger.com/profile/15635929001030697924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1169781154943228182007-01-25T22:12:00.000-05:002007-01-25T22:12:00.000-05:00JeffroGood Questions.One must either assume that f...Jeffro<BR/>Good Questions.<BR/><BR/>One must either assume that for 1900 years ALL conservative commentators were clouded by their male-dominated culture in interpreting 1 Timothy or that for the last 100 years SOME (by no means an overwhelming majority) conservative commentators are clouded by their women's rights culture. I choose to assume the latter, for obvious reasons.<BR/><BR/>As to your question concerning women M’s, I would never speak for Dr. Patterson, my personal belief is that sharing Christ is different from teaching in a local church, so I am very supportive of women missionaries and their sharing of Christ with others.<BR/><BR/>Concerning what women can teach, my personal opinion again, is that I am most comfortable with the current practices in our seminaries.<BR/>BRbrad reynoldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01449596955689180340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1169780447873846892007-01-25T22:00:00.000-05:002007-01-25T22:00:00.000-05:00Brad,In regard to your question:"Should our Semina...Brad,<BR/><BR/>In regard to your question:<BR/><BR/>"Should our Seminaries be like the Baptist Theological Seminary at Richmond?"<BR/><BR/>In my opinion, the answer is an emphatic "no!" Personally, I have no desire for our seminaries to be where they were 30 years ago (theologically)... which is exactly where seminaries such as BTSR and Truett are today (both of which ironically have women teaching theological and/or biblical studies). God bless!!!<BR/><BR/>In Christ,<BR/>JLGAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1169780172453226422007-01-25T21:56:00.000-05:002007-01-25T21:56:00.000-05:00PTLPlease re-read my comment...I was not equating ...PTL<BR/>Please re-read my comment...I was not equating them to the Kings of Israel. There is special honor to pastors since one is not to believe an accusation against them unless there are two witnesses (this standard is not given to those who are not pastors). But the Bible certainly gives special place to the poor, the widows, and orphans.<BR/>Yet, I don't think it negates the other observations I tried to make.<BR/>Not sure we disagree as much as you seem to think, but that's ok.<BR/>BRbrad reynoldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01449596955689180340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1169779738617608812007-01-25T21:48:00.000-05:002007-01-25T21:48:00.000-05:00Brad,I, too, think that the pastoral position is o...Brad,<BR/>I, too, think that the pastoral position is one of special esteem to God, I just can't make the leap to equating them to the kings of Israel.<BR/>Now, as to how we should treat pastors as opposed to others, I'm not sure they are afforded that honor by Paul or other NT writers. On the contrary, it is the widows, orphans, persons in prison, destitute, etc. who we are commanded to afford special attention. If there was any 'group' of people with whom I would feel most uncomfortable 'dissing' (to use a contemporary metaphor), it would be children.<BR/>We shall agree to disagree on this issue my brother. I just can't equate Dr. Patterson with Saul or David - great man though he may be.<BR/><BR/>Grace and good evening to you brother,<BR/><BR/>PTLposttinebraeluxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11056134147121498998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1169779543301679202007-01-25T21:45:00.000-05:002007-01-25T21:45:00.000-05:00Brad: It's not old age taxing your memory, daddy. ...Brad: It's not old age taxing your memory, daddy. It's the desire to be all things to all people at all times while trying to do what you really want to do. Hold Kelton and give quality time to your wife. It's hard to be a man these days. SelahVAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com