tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post116778429240969420..comments2023-08-21T09:15:59.650-05:00Comments on Guardian Ministries: What happens when I die?brad reynoldshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01449596955689180340noreply@blogger.comBlogger100125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-42307093394526089382007-02-02T11:05:00.000-05:002007-02-02T11:05:00.000-05:00scott,
all thru the nt we are taught that Jesus ...scott, <br /><br />all thru the nt we are taught that Jesus is the only way to heaven.... that we must come to the Father by grace thru faith(ephesians 2:8-10). and, those who die outside of Christ, or who die in thier sins, or who die without ever putting thier faith in Jesus as thier personal Lord and Savior, will go to hell forever.<br /><br />matthew 18:8-9<br />matthew 23:33<br />matthew 25:46...notice that the punishment is everlasting..does not end.<br />2 thessalonians 1:8-10....once again...those who do not know God will be punished with everlasting punishment.<br />also, in the gospels, Jesus talks about weeping and gnashing of teeth for those thrown into hell. they will be weeping and gnashing thier teeth in pain.<br />revelation 20 is another chapter that discusses hell...the lake of fire...verse 10 talks about the punishment being forever and ever.<br /><br />these are just a few out of hundreds in the nt that deal with hell being everlasting punishment...which the mormons deny. they teach that Jesus is the only way, and that those who die outside of Jesus, who refuse to repent and put thier faith in Jesus, will go to hell when they die...forever.<br /><br />acts 10:43 is a great verse about being forgiven of our sins thru Jesus.<br />acts 13:38-39<br /> and, the scriptures are so numerous about salvation being by grace thru faith....about Jesus being the way to heaven....about those who refuse to get saved going to hell forever...that if you read the nt you will see it so clear.<br /><br />scott, i would encourage you to read the book of romans...without the mormon commentaries...and just let the Lord speak to your heart thru your reading His Word. if you are truly interested in the truth, that is.<br /><br />davidvolfan007https://www.blogger.com/profile/15635929001030697924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-35720447013448386692007-02-01T21:13:00.000-05:002007-02-01T21:13:00.000-05:00Scott,
I will continue to answer your 9 quest...Scott,<br /> I will continue to answer your 9 questions, but before I do, I want to back up and make a statement that I believe. You and others may jump on me for saying this, but here goes.<br /><br />The curse of death that God put on man happened the day Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit. They died just like God said they would, and that was a spiritual death only. Jesus did not pay for a physical death or Christians would never die a physical death. Christians never die a spiritual death. God planned from the beginning that man would die and then live again. If man was going to live forever on earth, the tree of life had no significance. God has never made two laws that contradict one another. One law (tree of life) did not contradict his law that man would die a physical death because God’s curse was never a physical death. Do you see what I’m saying? All are going to live forever—in heaven or hell.<br /><br />Question 5: You ask an explanation of Isaiah 29 particularly verse 9-15. <br /> <br />This was prophecies concerning Judah how they would be conquered by their ignorance to see what was happening.<br /><br />Question 6: What is the book?<br /><br />The “book” is a metaphor that contains the future events of their destruction, but it is sealed to those that are learned. “To others” reminds me of my father (school principal) on the first day of school, telling my mother to have her class write one page on what they had done during the summer. She told him they couldn’t do that.<br />“Nonsense, I want everyone to start writing now and bring it to me when you’ve finished.”<br />This girl brought him her paper full of marks. He said, “Honey, what does this say?”<br />“I don’t know; I can’t read,” replied the first grader. <br /> Scott, I know where you’re headed—you think this book refers to the Book of Mormon, but it really means my book “The Truth of Acts.” Thanks for bringing my attention to it.<br /><br />Question 7: What is the marvelous work and wonder?<br /><br />Verse 14: “…I will [do] a marvelous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish.” Scott, the marvelous work and wonder is as the New Living Bible says in verse 14: “Therefore I will take awesome vengeance on these hypocrites, and make their wisest counselors as fools.”<br /> Scott, I know you are hinting that the Book of Mormon is the marvelous work and wonder. How can you take a word here and a word there out of context, put them together, and make an ignorant theology?<br /><br />Verse 13 (New Living Bible) should be a warning to all of us; “And so the Lord says, “These people say they are mine. They honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. And their worship of me is nothing but man-made rules.”<br /> Jesus quotes this verse in Mark 7:7 “…They worship Me in vain, teaching as doctrines the commands of men.” Wake up Scott, Jesus is talking to all of us.<br /><br />Question 8: Who is Jesus referring to in John: 16-17?<br /><br />The Living Bible makes these verses very plain: “So Jesus told them, “I’m not teaching you my own thoughts, but those of God who sent me. If any of you really determines to do God’s will, then you will certainly know whether my teaching is from God or is merely my own.” Scott the short answer is: Jesus was referring to his Father.<br /><br />Question 9: Who is Jesus praying to in John 17? (Please don’t tell me he is praying to himself.)<br /><br />In the Living Bible, Jesus said “Father” 6 times, and “you” or “yours” (referring to God), 49 times. He was praying to God. What is the point of your question? How can you defend your question as NOT being an ignorant question?<br /><br />Scott, Hebrews 6:1-2 ought to give you a clue that the Book of Mormon is not needed to give any needed information for Christians. “Let us stop going over the same old ground again and again, always teaching those first lessons about Christ…Surely we don’t need to speak further about the foolishness of trying to be saved by being good, or about the necessity of faith in God; you don’t need further instruction about baptism and spiritual gifts and the RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD AND ETERNAL JUDGMENT.”<br /> That’s it Scott, what the Bible says is all God intended his children to have. You need to heed Scripture (Living Bible) such as in Colossians: “I am saying this because I am afraid that someone may fool you with smooth talk. (2:4)<br /> “Don’t let others spoil your faith and joy with their philosophies, their wrong and shallow answers built on men’s thoughts and ideas, instead of what Christ has said.” (2:8)<br /> “Don’t let anyone declare you lost when you refuse to worship angels, as they say you must. They [Smith?] have seen a vision, they say, and know you should. These proud men…have a very clever imagination.” (2:18)<br /> “If you hear of people [Smith?] having visions and special messages from God…don’t believe them. Don’t be carried away and deceived regardless of what they say. (2 Thessalonians 2: 2-3)<br /> “Evil men and false teacher will become worse and worse, deceiving many, they themselves having been deceived by Satan.” “They won’t listen to what the Bible says but will blithely follow their own misguided ideas.” [Book of Mormon?] (2 Timothy 3: 13 4:4)<br /><br />I’m replying to your comment as you wrote it. You said for me not to worry about you going to hell. Let me ask you: Have you ever felt lost? (If not the Holy Spirit has never convicted you and you can never be saved until He does—No man comes to the Father unless I draw him.[not an exact quote]) Did you ask Jesus to save you? (If you have, you will be in heaven even in your ignorance—along with me and my ignorance in heaven.) <br /><br />You say I misquote Scripture for my purpose, but you gave no example. Am I just supposed to believe you?<br /> You say you have answered all my questions, but where have you written even one of my questions and gave a reply? <br /> You say I didn’t answer any of your questions. But you asked me to explain 1 Peter 4:6, “For this cause WAS the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”<br /><br />I did a copy—paste on my answer: There are two ways to look at the word “WAS”. WAS your great grandfather preached the Gospel before he died, or WAS your great grandfather preached the Gospel after he died?<br /><br />BTW, you never told me when your great grandfather WAS preached the gospel. Maybe that’s too far back—what about your grandfather or your father?<br /><br />When my brother told me goodbye this week, he was so weak he never took a pillow off his head. <br />Rex RayRex Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06976501582240117188noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-65472415754738261082007-01-31T20:20:00.000-05:002007-01-31T20:20:00.000-05:00Volfan,
You are correct. The only way to God is t...Volfan,<br /><br />You are correct. The only way to God is through Jesus Christ. Jesus said so.<br /><br />Can you explain/expand upon your comment that who dies outside of Christ goes to hell forever? What is your definition of 'outside' and can you give me your scripture references for your doctrine?<br /><br />ScottT2TFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15038539947888094552noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-32103256573596690092007-01-31T15:11:00.000-05:002007-01-31T15:11:00.000-05:00Jesus is the only way to heaven. if anyone does n...Jesus is the only way to heaven. if anyone does not come to the Father thru Jesus, then they will go to hell.<br /><br />all those who die outside of Jesus Christ will go to hell forever.<br /><br />davidvolfan007https://www.blogger.com/profile/15635929001030697924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1169846960920725572007-01-26T16:29:00.000-05:002007-01-26T16:29:00.000-05:00Rex,I hope all is well with your brother in Phoeni...Rex,<BR/><BR/>I hope all is well with your brother in Phoenix and you can return home soon.<BR/><BR/>Would you please explain 1 Cor. 15:29, John 5:25-29 and 1 Peter 3:18-20?<BR/><BR/>These scriptures talk of baptism for the dead and those spirits who need to hear the gospel because they never had the chance.<BR/><BR/>Also, regarding your #3 answer, I hope you are not serious in how you answered. How can you say that your belief is a just belief when people have never even heard of Jesus Christ and you assign them to hell? Can you please provide scripture references for your belief?<BR/><BR/>Christ died for ALL mankind and their sins, not just those who profess a belief in Christ. All mankind is made alive because of Christ.<BR/><BR/>Your answer to me makes me believe that you don't think Christ is just and will dismiss people who never had the chance to hear about his gospel. I promise you my friend, this is an erroneous belief and teaching! And I'm not sure how you could believe is such an injustice!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1169605341440295412007-01-23T21:22:00.000-05:002007-01-23T21:22:00.000-05:00RexJust wanted you to know I have been praying for...Rex<BR/>Just wanted you to know I have been praying for your brother today.<BR/>BRbrad reynoldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01449596955689180340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1169543133279309012007-01-23T04:05:00.000-05:002007-01-23T04:05:00.000-05:00Scott,Thank you for caring about my brother. So f...Scott,<BR/>Thank you for caring about my brother. So far they’ve found and ulcer, and have given him blood. I’ll be there in about 7 hours, so this will probably be my last ‘shot’ at you for a while. HA Maybe Brad will take my place.<BR/><BR/>If I have counted right you have asked 9 questions. I will number them as I get to them but will discuss some of your comments as I go.<BR/><BR/>1. “What Bible do I use?” I use the KJ Bible and six other translations.<BR/><BR/>I asked you to explain Hebrews 9:27, (“And as it is appointed unto man once to die, but after this the judgment”), and you replied, “Sir, we are not immediately judged when we die. There is a time between death, the resurrection and judgment.”<BR/><BR/>Hey! You left out the part about the cow jumping over the moon. I mean, you did not even attempt to explain the meaning. In reality, you cut the verse out and threw it away. If we are going to be honest with each other, just say I don’t believe that verse.<BR/><BR/>2, “Who are the people that the word WAS is referring to?”<BR/> To make any sense out of this question, I will copy paste the Scripture and my answer as I’ve already answered it once. (1-13-07 12:57 AM)<BR/>1 Peter 4:6, “For this cause WAS the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”<BR/><BR/>There are two ways to look at the word “WAS”. WAS you’re great grandfather preached the Gospel before he died, or WAS your great grandfather preached the Gospel after he died? <BR/><BR/>You say people are preached the Gospel after they die, but it’s much more in keeping with the Great Commission for people to be preached the Gospel BEFORE they die. <BR/><BR/>“…that they might be judged…” means they will be judged if they accepted the Gospel or not.<BR/><BR/>“…, but live according to God…” means heaven or hell according to God’s judgment.<BR/><BR/>“…in the spirit” does not mean live in God’s Spirit, but means man’s spirit or soul will live in heaven or hell.<BR/><BR/>You say, “Plainly, it says that the gospel will and is being preached to those who are dead.” <BR/><BR/>The Bible says plainly: The gospel WAS preached to those who are dead.<BR/><BR/>If you want me to share more than I already have, I will. All the sins of man before Calvary were temporarily forgiven by the sacrifice of animals to those who tried to keep the law until Jesus became the real sacrifice. The sins before and after Calvary were paid by Jesus. The preaching of the old law was in a sense directed to the Gospel of Christ. Therefore all people who heard the law had the Gospel preached to them and the Gospel WAS preached to them that heard and are now dead.<BR/><BR/>3. “What happens to all of the people who have lived on the earth but never heard the gospel?” They go to hell. Thus the great commission. <BR/><BR/>4. “What happens to them” See answer above.<BR/><BR/>I’m sorry Scott, bit off more than I can chew. I’ve got one hour before the alarm goes off to drive to the airport.<BR/>Rex RayRex Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06976501582240117188noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1169519783071444882007-01-22T21:36:00.000-05:002007-01-22T21:36:00.000-05:00Rex,I just read your comments about me going to he...Rex,<BR/><BR/>I just read your comments about me going to hell. Please don't worry about me going to hell. Kind of an arrogant statement from one who continually misquotes scripture to serve his purpose. I'm definitely not perfect but I'm not going to hell.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, I answered all of your questions but you didn't answer any of mine. Why not? I eagerly await your answers using scripture for your understanding.<BR/><BR/>I don't take pride in refuting every one of your assertions as all I'm trying to do is gain understanding and defend the gospel of Jesus Christ. As I told Selah, over the internet isn't the best way as it is slow and we are unable to understand ones true intentions.<BR/><BR/>However, I would love to see your answers to my questions. If Brad wants to jump in too, that would be fine.<BR/><BR/>I hope you enjoy the AZ weather as Mesa is my hometown. Go to Matta's on Main Street for some excellent Mexican food. Be sure to stop by the Mesa Temple on Main Street as well and go through the Visitor's Center. It could be very productive for you.<BR/><BR/>I truly hope your brother gets well soon.<BR/><BR/>ScottAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1169517560844104552007-01-22T20:59:00.000-05:002007-01-22T20:59:00.000-05:00RexI posted your comment about SW, but you may wan...Rex<BR/><BR/>I posted your comment about SW, but you may want to check your facts about their falling from 1 to 3 (I assume you are speaking of FTE's). It is not unusual for bloggers to be wrong about the facts but we try to be right on this blog. Further, your continual attack an Dr. Patterson rings hollow to an individual who saw what his leadership did for Southeastern (taking its enrollment to levels it had never been before). Further, you still never explained how SW is different from our other seminaries (none of whom employ women to teach Biblical Studies).<BR/><BR/>Concerning Scott, I will gladly e-mail back and forth with him on these issues should he desire, furthermore, ya'll have done valiantly, so there was no need for my input. Moreover, I am not convinced that the best way I could convince him of truth is on a public blog. I have and continue to pray for him and I have shared the gospel (the very post to which we are commenting). But thank you for your encouragement and I confess I should be more diligent in sharing with others. <BR/><BR/>Concerning Wade and SBCpastor, they both specifically addressed me...while Scott seemed to be discussing with you and others.<BR/>BRbrad reynoldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01449596955689180340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1169494077930400052007-01-22T14:27:00.000-05:002007-01-22T14:27:00.000-05:00SelahV, I hope you do go and speak with the missio...SelahV, I hope you do go and speak with the missionaries or someone at the church. Conversing through the internet or through email is a horrible practice. No one can see the real intent of an individual unless they are actually speaking with them.<BR/>You asked me back my 3 questions and I will tell you that I do know the answers to these questions. I don’t say that with arrogance or conceit, but with surety and knowledge. That’s why I posted what I did in the beginning of this blog. It asked the question of what happens to us when we die. I answered and was immediately given the “cult” sign by everyone. However, I haven’t read one answer to that question yet on this blog. If you really want these answers, then let me know and I will do my best in answering you.<BR/>If all of the “Christian” churches use the same Bible, then why the varied teachings and why don’t they have the answers to these questions? You can go ask any pastor and they won’t be able to tell you these answers based on scripture. They will tell you their interpretation or what the “church” has come up with for an answer, but it will not be according to the gospel of Jesus Christ.<BR/>Do you believe Christ to be the orchestrater of confusion and disarray? I don’t. I believe that there really is only one Lord, one faith and one baptism just as the scripture says. I don’t feel like I’m arguing with you. You and others have asked questions and I’m giving you the answers. Answers that apparently you and others don’t like.<BR/>I came to this sight to ask questions and gain understanding from the points of view of those who post about the ready dismissal of the Mormon baptism that was posted on one of the other commentaries. I did so in order to understand why it is that other “Christian” churches teach what they do. I gained a little insight but mostly it is all just hyperbole and nothing according to the Bible which everyone professes to believe.<BR/>I’ve been commenting with Jim on my website trying to understand even more about other churches and what they teach. You might want to take a look and see what we have been talking about.<BR/>If you want to get the Book of Mormon today, I think that is great. I hope that you read it with an open mind and with sincere prayer to know if it is true. If you have any questions, please ask and I’ll see what I can do. Invite the missionaries over and have a conversation with them and ask them questions. That’s why they are there. As I said before, this is a poor way to communicate things of such great importance.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1169477578948096442007-01-22T09:52:00.000-05:002007-01-22T09:52:00.000-05:00Brad,You may find this as another ‘attack’ on you ...Brad,<BR/>You may find this as another ‘attack’ on you or you may find it as ‘a wake up call.’<BR/><BR/>We all seem to delight in pointing out the speck in the other guy’s eye, but what are we doing for the lost world?<BR/><BR/>I have Scott in mind. Here’s a man that’s going to hell and taking who knows how many with him unless they have put their faith in Christ and are not tying to heaven by their works. He has made 5 comments consisting of 3,038 words in spreading his theology.<BR/><BR/>Jim, Selahv, Volfan, and I have made 11 comments to convince him otherwise. I’ve made 2,483 words alone.<BR/><BR/>Brad, you’ve given us no praise, but you say “Excellent observation” to JLG in his attack against Wade.<BR/><BR/>You have made 3 ‘critical’ comments to Wade and zero words to Scott.<BR/><BR/>Do you have some explanation?<BR/><BR/>In a way this Scripture applies to all of us if we ignore a lost world,<BR/><BR/> “Rescue those who are unjustly sentenced to death; don’t stand back and let them die. Don’t try to disclaim responsibility by saying you didn’t know about it. For God, who knows all hearts, knows yours, and he knows you knew! And he will reward everyone according to his deeds.” (Proverbs 24:11-12)<BR/><BR/>Scott, you may find our words silly and laugh, but by your own beliefs, you won’t get another chance once you leave this world for you’ve had the opportunity to understand the words you’ve read in the Bible.<BR/><BR/>I continue to ask prayers for my twin brother. He refused admittance to a hospital until a doctor told him he didn’t realize how close he was to death. This doctor told him after 3 months of valley fever he should be better but he was worse and they would look for something else. I’m going to be with him in Phoenix, Arizona.<BR/>Rex RayRex Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06976501582240117188noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1169476297746500882007-01-22T09:31:00.000-05:002007-01-22T09:31:00.000-05:00Brad,Regardless of whether one agrees with Dr. Pat...Brad,<BR/>Regardless of whether one agrees with Dr. Patterson's position (removing an assumedly tenure-track professor because of adherance to his - and I assume others' - interpretation of the passage in I Tim.) or Mr. Burleson's position (that Dr. Clouda shouldn't have been removed), I think it is important for SB's to know about the situation. I will not comment on 'how' the issue was brought to the public, but I will say that I am glad that it was as I think that the direction of our seminaries is an important affair for lay sb's/local churches (the owners of the seminaries) to understand and be aware of.<BR/><BR/>Grace and peace brother,<BR/><BR/>PTLposttinebraeluxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11056134147121498998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1169445074790422182007-01-22T00:51:00.000-05:002007-01-22T00:51:00.000-05:00Brad.You asked, “How has Southwestern behaved diff...Brad.<BR/>You asked, “How has Southwestern behaved differently from our other seminaries and if it has not then why single it out? The answer seems obvious.”<BR/><BR/>The obvious answer is some people with a prejudice mind cannot see facts.<BR/><BR/>Facts:<BR/>1. Sheri Klouda was hired unanimously by Southwestern trustee board when Hemphill was president who stated: “There was not a policy where [women] would not be able to teach church history or the languages.”<BR/>2. The trustees in hiring Sheri did not violate any policy of the school.<BR/>3. The trustees never voted to change school policy that would prohibit Sheri from being hired.<BR/>4. Patterson told Sheri to find a job elsewhere.<BR/>5. Who will take responsibility for her dismissal? <BR/>6. Patterson won’t talk or reply to anyone.<BR/>7. Chairman of the trustee board tried to take the heat off Patterson, “Dr. Klouda’s hiring…represented a momentary lax of the parameters.”<BR/><BR/>“Momentary lax of the parameters”? Is that temporary insanity? <BR/><BR/>The question arises: Is Patterson an employee of the board, or is the board an employee of the man that gave them their jobs?<BR/><BR/>I don’t recall any other seminaries being in mess after mess as Southwestern. No wonder under the guidance of Patterson the school has dropped from #1 to #3.<BR/>Rex RayRex Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06976501582240117188noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1169432303804581622007-01-21T21:18:00.000-05:002007-01-21T21:18:00.000-05:00SelahI can't really give a lot of details concerni...Selah<BR/><BR/>I can't really give a lot of details concerning my trip. I know you understand. Thank You.<BR/><BR/>Rex<BR/><BR/>As I asked Wade, how has Southwestern behaved differently from our other seminaries and if it has not then why single it out. The answer seems obvious.<BR/>BRbrad reynoldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01449596955689180340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1169361463057114492007-01-21T01:37:00.000-05:002007-01-21T01:37:00.000-05:00Brad; What Happens When I Die? I will be at peace....Brad; What Happens When I Die? I will be at peace. True everlasting eternal peace. No more sorrow. No more tears. Struggling will be over. No more bickering...no more accusations, no more mistrust. Total absolute peace. Lord, how I wish Jesus would return. I am so selfish. So very selfish. selahVAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1169352483792826792007-01-20T23:08:00.000-05:002007-01-20T23:08:00.000-05:00Brad,Here is today’s Dallas Morning News in the “M...Brad,<BR/>Here is today’s Dallas Morning News in the “Metro Section” by Sam Hodges—Staff Writer:<BR/><BR/>SOUTHERN BAPTISTS IN ROW OVER FEMALE TEACHER’S EXIT<BR/>Seminary case fuels debate on women’s role in theology programs.<BR/><BR/> Conservative Southern Baptists are fighting again, this time over whether women should be able to teach men in seminary theology programs.<BR/> They agree that the role of pastor is reserved for men, based on a verse in 1 Timothy in which the Apostle Paul says, “I permit no woman to teach or have authority over a man.”<BR/> But some conservatives say Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, under president Paige Patterson, wrongly applied the verse to remove from its faculty Sheri Klouda, who until last year had been teaching men Hebrew in the seminary’s school of theology.<BR/> The controversy is yet another sign that conservatives, who in the late 1970s and ‘80s united on a platform of biblical inerrancy while winning control of the Southern Baptist Convention, are seriously at odds.<BR/> Wade Burleson, an Oklahoma pastor and leader of dissident conservatives, this week used his blog to describe and decry the treatment of Dr. Klouda, who got her doctorate at Southwestern and was given a tenure-track position at the Fort Worth school in 2002.<BR/> “Sheri Klouda is not a pastor, she has not been ordained or licensed, she does not perform ministerial duties. She is a professor, for heaven’s sake,” Mr. Burleson said by phone Friday. “The same institution that conferred her degree and hired has now removed her for gender. To me, that is a very serious, ethical, moral breach.”<BR/> Dr. Patterson did not respond to request for comment. Speaking for the seminary instead was Van McClain, chairman of the Southwestern trustees.<BR/> He confirmed that Dr. Klouda was told she would not get tenure and was encouraged to find another job. He would not say why.<BR/> But Dr. McCain did say that Dr. Klouda’s hiring as a professor in the school of theology, which occurred before Dr. Patterson arrived in 2003, represented a “momentary lax of the parameters.”<BR/> Southwestern, he said, has gone back to its “traditional, confessional and biblical position” that women should not instruct men in theology or biblical languages.<BR/> Dr. Klouda, now teaching at Taylor University in Indiana, did not authorize Mr. Burleson to make her case public. But in a phone interview, she confirmed many details in his blog account.<BR/> “I don’t think it was right to hire me to do his job, to put me in the position where I, in good faith, assumed that I was working toward tenure, and then suddenly remove me without any cause other than gender,” she said.<BR/> Dr. Klouda said she was first informed on June 7, 2004, by an administrator she would not name, that she would not get tenure and should look for another job.<BR/> Later, she said, she spoke Dr. Patterson about the mater.<BR/> “He essentially said that his perspective and understanding in this regard was that in the teaching role in the school of theology, where we’re training pastors, those teachers should also be qualified to be pastors. Therefore, those teachers should be men,” she said.<BR/> Dr. Klouda said she was never given any reason other than her gender for not having her contract renewed. She said she and her husband had bought a house near the seminary, assuming she would be at Southwestern for many years.<BR/> “The house has not sold,” she said. “I pay this big house payment every month for nothing.”<BR/> Dr. McClain, the trustee, defended Southwestern’s treatment of Dr. Klouda. <BR/> “The administration was patient with her and allowed her to teach a full two years after she was told that she would not have tenure,: he said.<BR/> “During that time, she looked for a job, and the seminary even agreed to continue her support after her teaching responsibilities were over, so her family would have financial support. The seminary went far beyond anything that could be expressed as its duty or responsibility.”<BR/> Dr. Klouda earned degrees at Criswell College, with high honors, before enrolling at Southwestern. Even as a graduate student, she said, she taught Hebrew classes there on an adjunct basis.<BR/><BR/>Tacit Understanding<BR/> When she finished her doctorate, the trustees approved her appointment to the faculty, assigned to the school of theology. She said there was an unwritten understanding that she would teach language courses as opposed to more strictly theological courses.<BR/> The president then was Ken Hemphill. During his time at Southwestern, he said by phone, “There was not a policy where [women] would not be able to teach church history or the languages.”<BR/> Women have long taught at Southwestern outside the school of theology—in music and certain other areas. That continues. But under Dr. Patterson, the only woman still teaching in the field of theology is his wife, Dorothy. And she teaches women’s studies courses that aren’t attended by men. Dr. McCain said.<BR/> He added that precedent for women teaching theology in SBC seminaries is “extremely rare.”<BR/> “I do not know of any women teaching in any of the SBC seminaries presently in the area of theology or biblical languages,” Dr. McClain said. “In my estimation all of the seminaries have sought to be more consistent with most Southern Baptists’ understanding of Scripture on the matter.”<BR/> But Mr. Burleson said Southwestern had gone too far in decreeing that women shouldn’t be involved in the theological education of male pastors-in-training.<BR/> “What bothers me is the extraordinarily restrictive views of certain leaders in our convention regarding women,” he wrote on his blog.<BR/><BR/> Dallas Seminary<BR/> Among Dr. Klouda’s supporters is Eugene Merrill, a professor of Old Testament studies at Dallas Theological Seminary. It too is a conservative evangelical seminary, though not Southern Baptist.<BR/> “Sheri is highly qualified to teach Hebrew,” he said.<BR/> Dr. Merrill said conservative seminaries, including his own, have struggled with whether the verse in 1 Timothy should keep women from teaching men training to be pastors.<BR/> He believes it shouldn’t, arguing that Paul was speaking about the local church, “not the broader academy, which didn’t exist in Paul’s time.”<BR/> Dr. Morrill said his view has gradually prevailed at DTS, where a woman is among the Hebrew teachers.<BR/> For more than a year, Mr. Burleson has used his blog to air concerns about the direction of the SBC. He said his overall concern is that the denomination is every more narrowly defining what it means to be a Baptist.<BR/> He and other “blogging Baptist” claimed credit for helping elect Frank Page, an underdog, small town pastor, as president of the SBC last summer.<BR/> Mr. Burleson said his account of Dr. Klouda and Southwestern has prompted hundreds of comments on his blog.<BR/> “This strikes a chord in the hearts of all Southern Baptists.”<BR/>E-mail samhodges@dallasnews.com<BR/><BR/>Rex RayRex Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06976501582240117188noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1169339635761023642007-01-20T19:33:00.000-05:002007-01-20T19:33:00.000-05:00Scott: You say: "You harshness belies your lovely ...Scott: You say: "You harshness belies your lovely pictures on your website." I apologize if my words revealed harshness. The intent of my words is like a person who cries "uncle". I simply have no other words to share with you that I believe can penetrate the impasse in which I find our dialog. That's it. I am sorry. I truly am. I confess, I do not understand the book of Mormon. Don't want to understand it. Have found some of the practices of Mormons do not parallel the scriptures. I may be wrong. Maybe I will go down to our local Latter Days Saints Church and have a chat with the local elders and see what I can turn up. Unfortunately, I feel as though I have inflamed you in such a way that any real communication between us may be simply batting flies. So, I'll just wander back into my hole and muddle around in the Word of God and leave the philosophies of men to you to chat with others about.<BR/><BR/>But I ask you the same questions you ask me: "Do you know the answers to 3 simple questions: 1. Where did we come from? 2. Why are we here? 3. Where are we going?"<BR/><BR/>When you said I "blithely comment that you have life and death all figured out"...I don't see that as a casual commenting on my part. It was my assessment of anything I had to say to you that made one iota of sense. Obviously I am inept at communicating. I hardly think I can add to your belief system. You do attest to having knowledge we do not have and understanding we cannot grasp, do you not? So how is my comments to you casual bland communique of your belief system? And given your affirmative answer "yes" then how can my assumption be anything but simple acceptance that you believe exactly as I stated?<BR/><BR/>"Casually dismiss?" No, not casually. Purposefully. I find it difficult to argue with someone about scripture, Scott. I don't like to argue. I try to understand. I simply stated what I feel. And I feel the parallels you say are so evident sorely lack in alignment. It's simply my opinion. I promise you this, though. First thing Monday morning I'm gonna go down to the public Library and check out the book of Mormon. And read it. Would that make you feel better?<BR/><BR/>My referencing Matthew 10:14 may be "laughable" to you. It is not to me. It's sad. Very very sad. I by no means want to think of you as someone who does not know Jesus and does not want the gospel. But I do know that my words are not being received by you and they are being misinterpreted by you as "harshness", "arrogant","blithe", "laughable" and "casually dismissive." What else can I do but move on, dear Scott? Is there really anything I have to say to you that won't inflame you more? Is there any softness in my words which can turn away your wrath? Is there any wisdom in my words you can discern? Are my blogs filled with pictures which belie my motives and heart and words? If you see me as pride-filled, haughty and laughably silly, then what else is there for me to say? Wouldn't you move on if someone said this to you? Maybe not. But I do not find this conversation at all edifying to you, to me, or to others. For this I apologize to my host, and the commenters on this site. But to have ignored your comments to me appeared to beg me answer you. I will not ignore anyone who sincerely wants me to dialog with them. But I don't really think you want that from me. Grace and peace be upon you and yours. May you find His grace sufficient to meet your needs as I most certainly do. SelahVAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1169327871978412992007-01-20T16:17:00.000-05:002007-01-20T16:17:00.000-05:00JLGExcellent observationsBRJLG<BR/>Excellent observations<BR/>BRbrad reynoldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01449596955689180340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1169326035710694912007-01-20T15:47:00.000-05:002007-01-20T15:47:00.000-05:00WadeIn light of the way you misrepresented me by c...Wade<BR/><BR/>In light of the way you misrepresented me by calling me names like Landmarker I am not surprised Dr. Patterson did not respond. Further, because of past comments here I am truly not sure what to believe when you say something (fool me once…)<BR/><BR/>Forgive me, again for not just taking you at your word when you claim you have documentation, which states that she was not given tenure simply because she was a woman. <BR/><BR/>Concerning number 2, I never said such. I just said Trustees are privy to information we are not…surely you conquer.<BR/><BR/>My question was not in regards to the difference of teaching women Scripture and women pastors. <BR/><BR/>My question, which remains curiously unanswered, was in regards to using women to teach men how to pastor. Since you agree only men should pastor, then would you utilize women to teach men how to pastor? If so, that is interesting. If not, then again you agree in principle.<BR/><BR/>Further, you never responded as to why you singled out only one of our seminaries, (although I think the answer is obvious, now, for I know of no women teaching in pastoral ministries or biblical studies for that matter, in any of our seminaries – although you will find such at Richmond Seminary – it appears from your argument for such that you may be much more in “sync” there, my brother).<BR/><BR/>Finally, I am in sync with the BFM2000. No where does it declare that women should teach men the Bible…therefore for me to affirm that Scripture teaches “women are not to teach men the Scriptures in the local church” does not go against the BFM in any manner. To proclaim it does is a narrow interpretation of the BFM and actually narrows the tent.<BR/><BR/>Have a great weekend, and you, as well as your comments, are always welcome here.<BR/>BRbrad reynoldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01449596955689180340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1169324048980049192007-01-20T15:14:00.000-05:002007-01-20T15:14:00.000-05:00scott,you either worship three gods, or else you b...scott,<BR/><BR/>you either worship three gods, or else you believe in the trinity? there is only one God of heaven and earth. there will only be one God thru out eternity, because there is only one God. He is made up of three, distinct persons. He is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. the three make up the one true God.<BR/><BR/>Jesus was praying to His Father when He prayed. they are distinct, separate beings, yet they are one God.<BR/><BR/>joseph smith was a liar and a fraud. he was a charlatan who used people for money, and women for sex. this was proven over and over again....even in a court of law.<BR/><BR/>scott, my friend, come out of that cult and turn to Jesus....the Jesus of the bible, who said that He was the truth, the way, and the life. turn from your works based salvation and turn to Jesus in faith. the bible teaches in ephesians that salvation is by grace thru faith.....not of works.<BR/><BR/>volfan007volfan007https://www.blogger.com/profile/15635929001030697924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1169323771484240372007-01-20T15:09:00.000-05:002007-01-20T15:09:00.000-05:00brad,amen and amen. i rejoice in the Lord just ab...brad,<BR/><BR/>amen and amen. i rejoice in the Lord just about every time you write something.<BR/><BR/>volfan007volfan007https://www.blogger.com/profile/15635929001030697924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1169322312725656182007-01-20T14:45:00.000-05:002007-01-20T14:45:00.000-05:00Brad,Answer to your questions.(1). Yes. Absolutely...Brad,<BR/>Answer to your questions.<BR/><BR/>(1). Yes. Absolutely I have documentation. I never write what I write unless I can prove it. Why do you think the recommendation for my removal from the IMB was unanimously rescinded? :)<BR/> <BR/>(2). Brad, now you are talking off the top of your head. How do you know the trustees were even aware that Sheri would be denied tenure track? I imagine Van McClain will acknowledge he has no idea why she was not given the privilege of defending tenure before the trustees.<BR/><BR/>Brad, teaching me the Bible is not equivalent of holding the office of pastor. If you read my post carefully you would see that this has been the view of the SBC since the passage of the BFM 2000. Former VP of the Executive Committee, Bill Merrill, says the same thing in a BP article about Ann Graham Lotz, a link on my post yesterday. Suzie Hawkins, wife of O.S. Hawkins, and a member of the BFM 2000 Committee says the same thing -- even stronger, saying the BFM 2000 does not forbid women 'preachers,' just women 'pastors.'<BR/><BR/>You, Brad, are not in sync with the BFM 2000 on this issue, according to the very people who helped write it.<BR/><BR/>Finally, about Dr. Patterson. I sure did contact him before I posted the article. I called him. I emailed him. I sent him the document. I asked him to correct any factual misrepresntation. <BR/><BR/>Thanks for asking. <BR/><BR/>He never responded.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the questions. Any others will need to be given on my blog, since it is too difficult and time consuming to go between my blog and others.<BR/><BR/>I am grateful your trip to Africa was a success.<BR/><BR/>Have a great weekend.<BR/><BR/>Wadewadeburleson.orghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09712009938843809657noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1169317893166152392007-01-20T13:31:00.000-05:002007-01-20T13:31:00.000-05:00Wade,I find it “curious,” as do others, that Hodge...Wade,<BR/><BR/>I find it “curious,” as do others, that Hodge’s article in the Dallas Morning News makes no mention of your “assertion” that Dr. Patterson gave assurance to Dr. Klouda that she would be granted tenure. Are you saying, in your post, that Klouda told you that he personally gave her assurance that she would be granted tenure? Or, is there a link to an article that you can provide for us stating that he did so?<BR/><BR/>Clearly, the Baptist Press article – the one that you referred to in your post – says no such thing. In fact, it clearly states the opposite of that which you claim:<BR/><BR/>“Patterson was asked whether he would allow a woman to teach in the seminary’s school of theology. Noting that his wife, Dorothy, had served on the faculty at Southeastern Seminary teaching in the women’s studies program she developed within the division of theology, Patterson said that information provided ‘something of an answer.’ Earlier, the board unanimously elected her as a full professor without pay while having faculty benefits.<BR/><BR/>‘It would not be my purpose as a leader to do anything in the school of theology that would be something other than what I would want our churches to imitate.’ Expecting that ‘there are ample numbers of men who are well-qualified for those positions,’ Patterson said he plans to build the faculty with ‘God-called men.’ He said opportunities arise for women to teach in the areas of Christian education, ministry to women and children as well as music ministry.”<BR/><BR/>Thus, if you are relying upon that article to give credence to your claim that Patterson assured Klouda that she would be granted tenure, then you have clearly misrepresented his words and owe him a public apology. God bless!!!<BR/><BR/>In Christ,<BR/>JLGAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1169317714939823842007-01-20T13:28:00.000-05:002007-01-20T13:28:00.000-05:00Brad,Here is a “copy” of the email (taken from the...Brad,<BR/><BR/>Here is a “copy” of the email (taken from the comments section of Burleson’s latest post) from Dr. McClain to the Dallas Morning News that certainly appears to infer that Burleson’s post did, in fact, contain at least some “inaccuracies”:<BR/><BR/>“There are two main issues I want to address. First, Dr. Klouda was not dismissed from SWBTS. Actually she did not have tenure and, like hundreds of professors around the US every year, was told that she would not be awarded tenure. She accepted another position while employed at SWBTS. She also requested that Wade Burleson not release the story, in part because of inaccuracies. Because of confidentiality concerns, I cannot comment directly upon many of the allegations that have been made about SWBTS. The second issue involves the desire of SWBTS to have only men teaching who are qualified to be pastors, or who have been pastors, in the disciplines of theology, biblical studies, homiletics, and pastoral ministries. This is in keeping, of course, with the statement of faith of the SBC that clearly says that the pastorate is reserved for men. It is a matter of freedom of religion in this country for a private institution to align itself with the majority views of its constituency. None of our seminaries to my knowledge have women teaching in Theology, Biblical Studies, Homiletics or Pastoral Ministries. SWBTS is simply coming in line with the others and with our statement of faith.”<BR/><BR/>God bless!!!<BR/><BR/>In Christ,<BR/>JLGAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1169317398312186162007-01-20T13:23:00.000-05:002007-01-20T13:23:00.000-05:00WadeOne final question. You signed a statement af...Wade<BR/>One final question. You signed a statement affirming that if you felt someone was doing something wrong you would personally confront them. <BR/><BR/>Further, you have been a bright star calling for private confrontation before public confrontation. Thus, my question: Did you call and talk to Dr. Patterson about this privately before accusing him publicly? <BR/><BR/>In other words did you extend the same consideration to one of the architects of the conservative resurgence that you call for and extended to the pastor of the FBC Richmond? If not, you beg the question.<BR/>BRbrad reynoldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01449596955689180340noreply@blogger.com