tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post116296736395238632..comments2023-08-21T09:15:59.650-05:00Comments on Guardian Ministries: I Agree with John Calvin on Tongues:)brad reynoldshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01449596955689180340noreply@blogger.comBlogger167125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-50459788127851414402008-01-14T22:05:00.000-05:002008-01-14T22:05:00.000-05:00It seems that the issue of tongues is so misunders...It seems that the issue of tongues is so misunderstood by many. It is so uncomplicated that it takes "Theologians" to make it complicated. The cart and the horse are all turned around in every direction in the blogs and writings I have seen on the subject. Speaking in tongues seems to catch all the attention when actually it is subsequent to something else that doesn't even seem to get discussed. <BR/><BR/>I was in the Southern Baptist Church for about 40 years of my life and still am at heart at 65. I am glad they were there for me from the time I was kept in a nursery and far into my adulthood. They imparted into me much of what I still have today. The Baptist domination is dear to my heart and will continue to hold it there. It grieves me to see a schism in the SBC about anything. If indeed much of it is over Spiritual Gifts it is evident from the blogs and all I have read elsewhere that there is a gross Biblical ignorance about Spiritual Gifts, speaking in tongues, etc. I know, because I was ignorant about it myself at one time and am still learning. When taught under an anointed teacher it is so simple that it really does take a theologian to come in and make it complicated. Now, I am also amazed why anyone would not want ALL that God has to offer that was paid for and is freely given by Christ. Why would anyone take out their spiritual erasers and use them on God's Word except that they are sorely confused.<BR/><BR/>I see all the labels of Calvinist and so on being used in the SBC discussions and wonder where the Bibleist are in all this. Why will some people just not embrace all of the New Testament as God's Word and Covenant for us today? Then they wonder why they are having problems trying to explain away and or trying to understand a further step in the Christian life clearly laid out in the New Testament and prophesied in the Old Testament. That being the "Baptism in the Holy Spirit" that is subsequent to salvation to empower us to better walk the Christian walk and witness. I am still wondering how Romans 8:26, that is often used, is a base for any argument by itself. How anyone could think that God is not still the same yesterday, today and tomorrow as He has said He is. How or why did anything God has for us would go away with the Apostles or anything else?<BR/><BR/>First and foremost, without the Baptism in the Holy Spirit there is no one who is going to receive a personal prayer language. It is not the only evidence, but it is an evidence of the "In-filling" of the Holy Spirit. That comes after the "Indwelling" that is received at salvation. John the Baptist made this plain in Matthew 3:11 - I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with fire. Then later the Apostle Paul ran into some Baptist boys (disciples of John the Baptist) and ask them a question in Acts 19:1-6... While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2 and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." 3 So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?" "John's baptism," they replied. 4 Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5 On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. The same Spirit Jesus said he would send in John 14:16 (AMP) "And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter (Counselor, Helper, Intercessor, Advocate, Strengthener, and Standby), that He may remain with you forever--"<BR/><BR/>If it was needed then......how much more do we need it now!!! Especially in these times. God said He was going to pour out His Spirit on all flesh at the end of this age and He is going to do it. Yes, and it is going to cause problems between those who receive the in-filling, that comes with the Baptism in the Holy Spirit that happened for the first time in the Upper Room at Pentecost as Jesus said it would when He sent the Holy Spirit, and those who don't believe it is for us today or just for some people and not others for some weird reasons I cannot find in scripture. They try to base that, I think, on 1 Corinthians 12:27-31 that is listed with other Spiritual Gifts and is talking about the special Spiritual Gift of Tongues which is when God speaks to a congregation through a person and must be interpreted by someone with the Gift of Interpretation of Tongues. It says that not all will not have that Gift and they won't, but that doesn't have anything to do with the way they are trying to use it to prove something. Taking it out of context. This "Gift of Tongues" is not given to every believer who is Baptized with the Holy Spirit. It can operate in them if the Holy Spirit wants it to at some time, but is not always a permanent Gift. THIS IS NOT the personal prayer language that is given to anyone Baptized in the Holy Spirit. Anyone can have that baptism who is "born again" and wants it. They will get a "personal prayer language" at that time, but not necessarily the special Gift of Tongues I have already explained.<BR/><BR/>It is easy to understand why there is so much confusion. It happens when you are not where it is not believed, taught or preached by all. Or taught by people who are not anointed to teach in those areas and the result is confusion and discord. The Holy Spirit cannot function in an atmosphere of discord. That is why when I was Baptized with the Holy Spirit I had to find a place that could explain what had happened to me and had helped me to grow in the grace God had given me during one of my "head prayer" times when I really did not know how to pray or what to pray for. I have not and will not look back since that day. My Christian walk exploded to a new level on that day. The Bible seemed to become a new book after that. Revelation then and now just jump of the pages at me that previously after many years of in-depth Bible study I had never seen before. <BR/><BR/>I often wonder why Christians who are interested in these matters will go to a minister or anyone else who not been Baptized in the Holy Spirit and ask them what they think. What of value could they possibly tell them about something they have never experienced? Can we explain the spiritual results of salvation to someone who has never experienced it? Can we reduce a spiritual experience to carnal understanding? Poorly at best. That is the reason the Holy Spirit has to speak to the person we are speaking to about about God's salvation for us or there is no result. The Holy Spirit must draw them. It is the same thing with the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the resulting speaking in tongues as a personal prayer language, the Gift of Speaking in Tongues and all the other Spiritual Gifts that the Holy Spirit gives as He wills to each. I can also tell you that anyone who is Baptized in the Holy Spirit will never grow in it and will eventually dry up if they do not find a place where it is practiced and has an anointed teacher to help them. I have personally seen this happen time and again to people who were Baptized in the Holy Spirit. You cannot keep that experience active when you stay in a place where the Holy Spirit is not always in charge. ie, You might not be able to set your watch by what is usually suppose to happen next in a service. The agenda is always subject to change<BR/>when the Holy Spirit is in charge. However, "But all things must be done properly and in order." <BR/>( I Corinthians 14:40)<BR/><BR/>You shouldn't care what I think. I don't even care what I think or what anybody else thinks, but we all should care what God thinks. It is amazing that the Baptism in the Holy Spirit was prevalent in denominational churches, including Baptist Churches, up until early in the last century. Where did it go? No church or person has it "just right" anywhere today. We are all a work in progress. God is pouring His Spirit out on all flesh at the end of the age just like He said He would on anyone that would receive it and walk in it. He is going to have His way in the end. Pick and choose Cafeteria Bible Christians with spiritual erasers at work in God's Word are going to remain weak and confused. That is exactly what "the adversary" wants. He loves a good fuss in the churches anywhere.<BR/><BR/>Here is an article I think you will find interesting. Especially the comment a Chinese gentleman made about the American churches he visited in Kevin Turner's article "Why Isn't The American Church Growing". I hope you will read every word of it as I did. Sobering to say the least.<BR/><BR/>http://www.swi.org/KevinsEyes.aspx?Page=3&ID=5<BR/><BR/>I wish you all to be blessed In Him and that The Truth in all things that are of Christ will prevail in all of us.<BR/><BR/>In His Love,<BR/>WayneAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1169619902525758052007-01-24T01:25:00.000-05:002007-01-24T01:25:00.000-05:00I was curious as to why the older comments appear ...I was curious as to why the older comments appear first and the more recent comments need to be scrolled down (way down) to.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1164425650184453892006-11-24T22:34:00.000-05:002006-11-24T22:34:00.000-05:00Dear Mark’s friend, Didn’t mean to ignore your...Dear Mark’s friend,<BR/> Didn’t mean to ignore your replies. It’s nice of Brad to let us get off topic that some won’t allow. We lived across the lake from you when you and Mark were at DBU. We were there looking for the BGCT annual meeting last week, but the meeting was at the Dallas convention center. The campus has grown a lot.<BR/><BR/>Hez asked what your name was. They have moved to Arizona and he has had the “valley fever” for two weeks now. He finally started taking some medicine today. I told him if he wasn’t careful, I’d be writing on his tombstone, “Get me out of here—there’s nothing wrong with me.”<BR/><BR/>Just talked to Mark’s parents. They said they would get your name from him. I appreciate your work for the Lord and your friendship to people I love.<BR/> Tell Mark I remember our last conversation. He didn’t want to hear anything about the SBC controversies, but I listened for a long time his side of what was going on. I drove 2,000 miles to vote for Frank Page. I hope the differences can be set aside as Wade Burleson said, “What holds us together is bigger than what separates us.” <BR/>Rex RayRex Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06976501582240117188noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1164041491961288662006-11-20T11:51:00.000-05:002006-11-20T11:51:00.000-05:00Rex, i was not with the group that went to Tanac...Rex,<BR/> i was not with the group that went to Tanacross I beleve it was to get the building and move it to Fairbanks - but I know of the gorup - some were my classmates. ANyway Hez was well respected and loved among Fairbanks Baptists and I have never forgotten him. When I therefore got to Dallas Baptist and met Mark I was amazed at what a small worl it is - and Mark and I have bene friends now for 30 plus years - I recently stayed with he and his wife while visiting in the country where they serve. I believe tht he is maybe a 4th generation misisonary so I know that your family has a great and godly heritage. Have a great day and when you see or talk to Hez again - give him my best.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1164033634580898292006-11-20T09:40:00.000-05:002006-11-20T09:40:00.000-05:00RexYour brother must be an amazing man. And he is...Rex<BR/><BR/>Your brother must be an amazing man. And he is blessed to have a loyal brother like you.<BR/><BR/>I agree with your comment on horse sense. Sadly I have met men who have plenty of “book smarts” but are lacking in horse sense. I would much rather have the latter. Nevertheless, I still feel strongly about manners and calling people by their titles. However, I could honestly care less if someone calls me Dr, for I am full aware all that is good about me is a result of Christ and Christ alone.<BR/><BR/>Be Blessed<BR/>BRbrad reynoldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01449596955689180340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1164033093972732022006-11-20T09:31:00.000-05:002006-11-20T09:31:00.000-05:00SelahGood question. I think perhaps 2 commenting ...Selah<BR/><BR/>Good question. I think perhaps 2 commenting here speak in tongues based on what they have said.<BR/><BR/>BRbrad reynoldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01449596955689180340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1164004533719762822006-11-20T01:35:00.000-05:002006-11-20T01:35:00.000-05:00Brad, Thank you for posting my comment about m...Brad,<BR/> Thank you for posting my comment about my brother. Until we were 21, we’d never been apart more than 3 days. He went to Alaska to finish college and stayed about 20 years. I felt like I’d lost my right arm. We see each other about ever 3 years.<BR/> My wife complains all I want to do is talk to people about my brother. I think if I’d been James, the New Testament would be twice as thick. <BR/><BR/>I don’t know if the anonymous missionary was along or not when Hez had a group of high school boys who were going to remove the snow from top of a large aircraft hanger the city had bought for a dollar from the government to move 150 miles by volunteers to Fairbanks for a youth recreation building. One boy fell through a hole covered with snow. His foot caught in some bracing and the kids lowered Hez down by his ankles to retrieve the boy who was dangling and screaming 50 feet above the floor. Many years later they named the sport complex after Hez and a man asked if he recognized him. Hez said no, but called the man’s name after he heard, “You grabbed my leg.”<BR/><BR/>Mark, who the missionary mentioned, has a father that is a retired missionary from Korea, and a grandfather (I’m named after) who was a missionary to China 30 years and then Korea for 7 years.<BR/> This is proof that it was good that Christians didn’t take Paul’s advice about it being better not to marry.<BR/><BR/>Brad, my daughter-in-law will get her PHD next month, but I will still call her Beth. Once my father was told by his teacher to rub his nose against a horse’s nose and MAYBE some ‘horse sense’ would rub off on him. I think ‘horse sense’ should be the highest degree of all, but better than that—who is the greatest? Luke 9:48 “Whoever is least among you is the greatest.” That Scripture bothered me for it seemed no ‘great’ men would have a chance to be “least”. I believe the (old) Living Bible has a better interpretation with, “Your care of others is the measure of your greatness.” <BR/>Rex RayRex Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06976501582240117188noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1163955089745241882006-11-19T11:51:00.000-05:002006-11-19T11:51:00.000-05:00i have to agree with brad. i too have cooperated ...i have to agree with brad. i too have cooperated with charismatics. it is indeed different than paying them.<BR/><BR/>volfan007volfan007https://www.blogger.com/profile/15635929001030697924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1163912930813259402006-11-19T00:08:00.000-05:002006-11-19T00:08:00.000-05:00Dr. Reynolds: I use to address you as Brad, and I...Dr. Reynolds: I use to address you as Brad, and I may again in the future, but having read the absolute clarity and diplomacy in which you have answered all these comments, I have to bow to your most earned title at this moment.<BR/><BR/>I have stated before that I'm no theologian. The debates on grace are the most perplexing to me. But tongues has always been a subject of interest since I was saved in 1976. For a while I thought I wasn't saved because I didn't have that "gift". This is definitely a topic others must be interested in, too--by the amount of traffic you have seen. <BR/><BR/>In this sea of comments, I may have missed it, but did anyone who actually speaks in tongues comment?<BR/>Just wondering...selahVAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1163857349921735772006-11-18T08:42:00.000-05:002006-11-18T08:42:00.000-05:00DavidI too would and have cooperated with charisma...David<BR/><BR/>I too would and have cooperated with charismatics. That is different from paying them.<BR/>BRbrad reynoldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01449596955689180340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1163857267505213532006-11-18T08:41:00.000-05:002006-11-18T08:41:00.000-05:00RexThere seem to be many who are using the equalit...Rex<BR/><BR/>There seem to be many who are using the equality of all men to excuse their lack of manners. I feel certain you are not encouraging such. I could care less if someone calls me Brad; Dr. Reynolds; Brother Brad; Reverend Reynolds; Pastor Brad; Mr. Reynolds or what. Nevertheless, my son will call you Mr. Ray unless you have a doctorate and then he and I both will call you Dr. Ray. To me it is common courtesy, by giving credit to whom credit is due.<BR/><BR/>God Bless<BR/>BRbrad reynoldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01449596955689180340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1163826332808283342006-11-18T00:05:00.000-05:002006-11-18T00:05:00.000-05:00Rex, This is the anonymous missionary - and while...Rex,<BR/> This is the anonymous missionary - and while I do not always agree with your ideas (especially on PPL) - I enjoy reading them. Nevertheless - your post caught my attention - because apparently your twin brother Hez - he was my 9th grade PE teacher - he was a great guy and I loved him to death. I was in a new place and a new school and I could not have had a better teacher than Hez Ray. I have often thought about him and knew somewhat about him through my good friend and colleague - and anothe rrelative of yours - Mark. Anyway when you see him tell him he made a difference not jsut in this young man's life but many of that time in Fairbanks.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1163802576098152942006-11-17T17:29:00.000-05:002006-11-17T17:29:00.000-05:00Anonymous,Though I do agree with the great majorit...Anonymous,<BR/><BR/>Though I do agree with the great majority of the things he stood for, and have been greatly, greatly impacted by his life and ministry, I have never claimed my own views to be 100% in agreement with those of my Dad. On the issue of tongues, my father, as I understand it, was not a true "cessationist" but rather held a more "open but cautious" view. I believe he also tended to think biblical tongues to be known human languages. However, I disagree with you that he would in any way be "disappointed" in me for my understanding of Scripture and the views I have voiced. That was part of the greatness of my father. Although he held very strong convictions, and was never afraid to take a stand for the truth, he was also a very magnanimous man, who knew how to divide first, second, and third-tier issues. We often had very good discussions on theological issues, some of which we did not agree on 100%. But I never felt that he respected me any less for that.<BR/><BR/>I do think it is significant, however, that my father was not loath to collaborate together in various ministry projects with several who would be known proponents of "PPL". Not that he was necessarily in favor. Just that he apparently did not see this as a barrier to either Christian fellowship or collaboration in preaching the Gospel. And, as I have mentioned on other occasions, from first-hand reports of others who talked to my father shortly before he died, he did not think the new policy at the IMB on "PPL" was a good idea.<BR/><BR/>You are correct that George Verwer (as well as many others) has had an impact on my life and way of thinking. On the particular issue of tongues, however (to whatever degree I am able to truly be objective), I would say my main influence has been my personal study of Scripture.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1163748576971866502006-11-17T02:29:00.000-05:002006-11-17T02:29:00.000-05:00Lug, You answer very well. Your tone is humbl...Lug,<BR/> You answer very well. Your tone is humble, kind, apologetic—so much so, I think you would make a good Baptist if were not for the fact that you have accepted the teachings that Paul talked against in Galatians 1:8. “Let God’s curses fall on anyone who preaches any other way to be saved than the one we told you about.” Paul and Peter said salvation was a gift. Paul wrote almost 100 Scriptures saying our salvation was a result of our, belief, trust, or faith in Jesus. People trying to work their way to heaven should heed Galatians 1:6 “I am amazed that you are turning away so soon from God who, in his love and mercy, invited you to share the eternal life he gives through Christ; you are following a different ‘way to heaven,’ which really doesn’t go to heaven at all.”<BR/><BR/>You say you refer to Brad as “Dr.” as a sign of respect. That’s a man-thing you know. There was no Dr. Jesus, or Dr. Paul. When Christ said to call no man “Father”, I believe we were not to put praise and glory on a person because of his ‘education.’ My father who had a Masters in the 1930’s, said all a degree did was put a little more curl in the pig’s tail. Some people work hard to be called Dr. to help their low self esteem, and usually they still have what they started with.<BR/><BR/>Lug, one reason I got on your case, you said you would not adopt certain beliefs or doctrines to win a few more souls. The topic of Brad’s post is: 'should PPL be accepted or not.' The PPL people are winning more souls, but the IMB has declared PPL people will NOT be allowed as missionaries. Our president of the IMB is a PPL person. How ridiculous can our IMB get? It’s people like Brad that have figured out (in their minds) that at present, the Bible teaches that PPL may be from the devil. That makes him a teacher of religion. Right? Do you recall what Jesus said about teachers of religion in Mark 12:38 and Luke 11:52? “BEWARE OF TEACHERS OF RELIGION.”<BR/> My prayer for you, Lug, is to teach your wife to be a good Baptist and follow her example.<BR/><BR/>Bubba,<BR/> Who said I was a pastor? Today, I put in 8 hours of volunteer painting and measuring ceiling tiles to go in the kids department at church. I was alone as usual. Yesterday, I installed insulation. The day before, I drove 170 miles with 50# of air in my tires to get the tiles. Monday, I was a messenger to the BGCT convention where most of the ‘talk’ was about us getting suckered out of 1.3 million dollars because our leaders had been too trusting about giving money to start ‘fake’ churches. If we don’t get more people working, I’ll literally have a life-long job of getting our new church finished. I was using a hand saw in decking our old church when I was 15 and a charter member in 1944. Sounds like I’m gripping, but I still love ever minute. I’ve worked on churches from Mexico to Alaska and 18 overseas projects for the SBC.<BR/> Yea, I can spot those PPL people in our church. They raise their hands in the air on the songs. Makes me feel uncomfortable, or should I say guilty? Do you feel guilty, Bubba? I notice they’re more involved in church than most. Some have a prison ministry for many years.<BR/> Hey! Jesus walked on the Sea of Galilee, but I’ve crawled on the bottom. Even swam 4 miles across when I was 65. Designed the tool for the space shuttle nose-cone. There—I’m sure I told you more answers than you wanted to hear.<BR/><BR/>Brad,<BR/> How about a favor? Don’t mean to high-jack your post with off topic stuff but maybe someone out there might identify this person.<BR/><BR/>STRANGERS WHEN WE MEET<BR/>(Retold by Rex Ray 11-16-06)<BR/> Denton, Texas 1978: a young black man asked an older man (Hez) if a house was for rent. <BR/>“No, it’s for sale. Where’re you from?<BR/> “No one has heard of my town, Yellow Knife, Canada.”<BR/> “I spent two weeks there. “How come you’re so far from home? <BR/> “I was on a high school hockey team that won a gold medal in the first Artic Winter Games in 1968. They gave us a four year scholarship and now I’m working on a PHD. I almost didn’t get to play as there was a fuss if I was eligible or not. They called some American to decide. If it hadn’t been for him, I’d be working in the gold mines now.”<BR/> Hez said, “So you got to play even thought you’d been in that school only 5 weeks.”<BR/> “How’d you know that?”<BR/> “I’m that American.”<BR/> After a hug, Hez explained his two weeks in Yellow Knife helping to organize the games. At the time, he was Parks and Recreation Director of Fairbanks, Alaska and had been selected by the governor to explain to Canada why Alaska was not going to participate as they didn’t have the money. Canada planned for only adults to participate. Hez told the authorities he wouldn’t walk across the street to see adults play, but he’d work hard to help kids play, and others would too. They complained that’d cost too much money. Hez said Alaska was out if they didn’t include kids, and they finally agreed. The Alaska governor threw a fit, but Hez organized a benefit drive and they had the games.<BR/> Today, 27 countries are in the Artic Winter Games. The present authorities want to celebrate their 40th anniversary in 2008 with Hez meeting the hockey player again, but no one remembers the player’s name. Does anyone know where he is?<BR/> Hez is my 74 year-old twin brother. <BR/><BR/>Rex RayRex Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06976501582240117188noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1163747036932666622006-11-17T02:03:00.000-05:002006-11-17T02:03:00.000-05:00MMM Todd, I've had my wheaties and coffee.. but ma...MMM Todd, <BR/>I've had my wheaties and coffee.. but maybe you need yours :)<BR/>Your response is overly defensive. <BR/>My only concern with you personally is that you are identifying yourself as a SBC, rather than a Vineyard pastor, which your website indicates you are (unless you do not personally subscribe to the Vineyard statement of faith that you have published as your church's statement of faith on your website).<BR/><BR/>To say that Wimber and his associates only came to Australia once and didn't push stuff here is incorrect. It was between 1981 through 1983 that he came out while still lecturing at Fuller, and then in 1990 there was another spate (SMH 20/02/1990). My mates at theological college all went along. <BR/>Our main source of Christian books in Australia is the near monopoly holder Koorong (I have known the owner since 1977), who, as a Vineyard supporter does not stock anything much from Broadman and Holman or Lifeway. Vineyard material and the 3rd Wave line predominates here in Australia.<BR/>Now I'm not saying this from envy, its just a reality. Imagine oif you will a place where you cannot buy from a shop anything published by SBC pastors. Or that only plugs the Pentecostal line. that's been us for 20 years.<BR/>To say that there is no aggressive movement to make conservative churches capitulate to Pentecostalism in its various forms is pure nonsense. Why, for some years I was mistakenly sent literature for pentecostal pastors congratulating those who had infiltrated other denominational churches to split them to form pentecostal churches.<BR/>Their reward for subverting a church was to be ordained into that denomination and transferred to a wealthier more lucrative pastoral position.<BR/>I remember once meeting a Moderate leader in the USA. I shook hands with him, drew my hand back and inadvertantly counted my fingers to make sure they were all there!<BR/>Here in Australia the charismatic guys are not so slick. They come right out and say that their intention is domination.<BR/>Hey, I got no grief with you in KL, Todd. :)<BR/>SteveAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1163729907481511042006-11-16T21:18:00.000-05:002006-11-16T21:18:00.000-05:00David, Your father was probably the "prince of So...David,<BR/> Your father was probably the "prince of Southern Baptist preachers" - I have been at various times challenged, entertained, convicted, and edified by his messages. I often wonder if he were here what he would be thinking aobut all of this. What would he think of his sons position? Either Dr. Rogers had a sympathetic or at least tolerant view for PPL and such matters - or he was oppposed to it. I think that would be a fair assessment of everyone position that has written on this blog. If he had a sympathetic view (which would coincide with yours and therefore it is very possible since you grew up in his home) then he would probably be very proud of you. Conversely if he held to the other view - while still proud of you - he might be disappointed in you. Other than meeting and shaking his hand a couple of times - I did not know your father. However as I look at people who did know him well - his neighbor who was also a deacon at Bellevue and a close friend of mine - and many graduates of mid-America - I would tend to think that he would be opposed to PPL. Why? Because some of the people I see who are the most opposed (vehemently opposed - even more than I am - and I am opposed) to PPL are graduates of Mid-America or have been prominently associatged with your dad. Now his associates he may not have any control over - however the gradautes of the school that he was a moving force behind - for them to be coming out with such an anti-PPL position would I feel be very strange. Just as graduates of ORU often reflect the views and beliefs of Oral Roberts, or graduates of Regent reflects the views of Pat Robertson (there ae exceptions) - thus I would think that by and large graduates of Mid-America would have been impacted by your father's views of Scripture. Of course your father is no longer amongst us but in a much better place where he KNOWS pure truth. I get the ompression from some of the things that you have written however that you have been more impacted possibly by George Verwer as I see a lot of his thinking in you - and that is not bad - he has one of the most passionate visions of reaching the world of anyone I know of anywhere. Blessings on you and your family.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1163700003838891662006-11-16T13:00:00.000-05:002006-11-16T13:00:00.000-05:00Dear Mr. Ray,I profusely apologize if I stated any...Dear Mr. Ray,<BR/><BR/>I profusely apologize if I stated anything which might have been offensive. That was not my intention and I tried to make that clear in my comments. <BR/><BR/>Just to clarify a few things; I refer to Brad Reynolds as Dr. Reynolds as a sign of respect and because his education level dictates I should. Similarly I would refer to Rev. Todd Nelson as Dr. Nelson and I would naturally extend that same respect to you. <BR/><BR/>As I stated in my comments I was merely posing an example and I did not wish to offend. There was a comment made prior to my posting about waning membership and that maybe the SBC should embrace certain groups despite doctrinal differences merely because said groups are growing. When I posted I was actually thinking of the Episcopalians with their more controversial inclusion of beliefs and doctrines, diametriclly opposed to what I believe the Bible to state, just to increase membership. I just didn't want to mention a specific religion. <BR/><BR/>I am certainly not against gathering more souls to Christ. Just because I belong to the cult of Mormonism does not mean that I am not pleased if the Baptists bring people to Christ. (BTW, my wife is Baptist, although in the interest of disclosure, not a very good one, lol) I hope I did not give that impression and I apologize if I did.<BR/><BR/>I spent eight years in Georgia and one of the many positives I took from my time in the South was my experience with the Southern Baptists. Although we have some fundemental doctrinal differences, the one area where we are not as different as you think would be in the manner in which we choose to serve Christ (I know SB's think we are not following the same Christ so this point does not need to be brought up). My point is that living a Christ-like life is where we are similar; serving Christ and our fellow man, for Baptists and Mormons, is a way of life and not ceremony or once a week at church etc. I was extremely impressed with the 24/7 spirituality and kindness shown by SB members. That may not mean much coming from me but I wanted to at least express my feelings. <BR/><BR/>One last point and I will finish. I visit Dr. Reynolds blog because I find his posts thoughtful, intelligent, and for the most part accurate. I have also been impressed with Dr. Reynolds even-handed manner...even when dealing with Mormons. I have found the visitors and commentors to be polite and for the most part objective when discussing subjective content. Commentors state scriptural basis for their arguments and do not resort to the "I'm right, you're wrong" level which I find refreshing. Plus I love to read stuff from that revbubbabear, that guy cracks me up. <BR/><BR/>For the record, I was agreeing with Dr. Reynolds thesis on Calvin's writings on tongues not necessarily agreeing with Dr. Reynolds. I have not been posting here long but I think you will find that Dr. Reynolds and I rarely agree but are civil in our disagreements. <BR/><BR/>I hope that clears things up a bit. I truly am sorry if I posted anything you, or anyone else for that matter, might have found to be offensive or "of the devil". I will be more careful in the future.<BR/><BR/>God be with you,<BR/><BR/>Lug...outLug Nutmeggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17721880238019019439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1163681309683144552006-11-16T07:48:00.001-05:002006-11-16T07:48:00.001-05:00ToddAgreed. And you are wise in recognizing the v...Todd<BR/>Agreed. And you are wise in recognizing the validity of history based on who writes it. I imagine we will one day realize the truth of all things but I fear many concerns will fade in that day:)<BR/>BRbrad reynoldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01449596955689180340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1163681283036476022006-11-16T07:48:00.000-05:002006-11-16T07:48:00.000-05:00RexYou have an amazing gift for rephrasing. Our M...Rex<BR/>You have an amazing gift for rephrasing. Our Mormon friend wrote, “I am not sure that just because membership has plateaued and new baptisms are few and far between that certain beliefs or doctrines should be adopted in order to gather a few more souls.” And you have restated it by saying, “He was against doing something that would “gather more souls.” To me, his suggestion seemed straight from the devil.”<BR/><BR/>Clearly, we disagree on what he intended. I felt a transparent reading of his comment implied that he did not think it wise to compromise theology for praxis. <BR/><BR/>I felt he was saying the ends does not justify the means. I am certainly not going to throw my hat in with the CBF (who have compromised theological truths) just because they may be “winning some souls,” nor will I give my support to Benny Hinn or others just because they “win souls.” Feel free to claim that such thinking is from the devil; but such rhetoric is quite revealing.<BR/><BR/>Also, I do not capitalize words just for their proximity to Truth, I also capitalize them for emphasis…I certainly did not intend to offend you. I revere God’s Word highly, and that reverence is not compromised when I capitalize other Men’s Words for Emphasis. If it appeared that way, I apologize.<BR/><BR/>As to my agreement with others because they agree with me…I’m not really sure that it matters who initiates the agreement, but you are right, I am in agreement with those who I am in agreement with.<BR/>BRbrad reynoldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01449596955689180340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1163681099241311842006-11-16T07:44:00.000-05:002006-11-16T07:44:00.000-05:00David,I am not sure of protocol either. I am, how...David,<BR/><BR/>I am not sure of protocol either. I am, however, quite sure Presidents have used their Presidential address to address: 1)concerns in the convention and 2)practices they may not be in agreement with. Dr. Welch spoke of blogs this summer. <BR/><BR/>However, my point was that my impression of your father was that, had he been opposed to the actions of NAMB, whether he was President or not, he would have voiced his opposition.<BR/><BR/>I did not remember, that yesterday was the one-year anniversary…when I read that I took a moment to pray for you and your family, especially your mom (their marriage testimony still speaks volumes), and to thank God for his life.<BR/><BR/>God bless my brother<BR/>BRbrad reynoldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01449596955689180340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1163680620479843322006-11-16T07:37:00.000-05:002006-11-16T07:37:00.000-05:00RexYou have an amazing gift for rephrasing. Our M...Rex<BR/>You have an amazing gift for rephrasing. Our Mormon friend wrote, “I am not sure that just because membership has plateaued and new baptisms are few and far between that certain beliefs or doctrines should be adopted in order to gather a few more souls.” And you have restated it by saying, “He was against doing something that would “gather more souls.” To me, his suggestion seemed straight from the devil.”<BR/><BR/>Clearly, we disagree on what he intended. I felt a translucent reading of his comment implied that he did not think it wise to compromise theology for praxis. <BR/><BR/>I felt he was saying the ends does not justify the means. I am certainly not going to throw my hat in with the CBF (who have compromised theological truths) just because they may be “winning some souls,” nor will I give my support to Benny Hinn or others just because they “win souls.” Feel free to claim that such thinking is from the devil; but such rhetoric is quite revealing.<BR/><BR/>Also, words are not just capitalized for their proximity to Truth, I also capitalize them for emphasis…I certainly did not intend to offend you. I revere God’s Word highly, and that reverence is not compromised when I capitalize other Men’s Words for Emphasis. If it appeared that way, I apologize.<BR/><BR/>As to my agreement with others because they agree with me…I’m not really sure that it matters who initiates the agreement, but you are right, I am in agreement with those who I am in agreement with.<BR/>BRbrad reynoldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01449596955689180340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1163661184985930052006-11-16T02:13:00.000-05:002006-11-16T02:13:00.000-05:00Brad,I think you and I will both agree that my fat...Brad,<BR/><BR/>I think you and I will both agree that my father was never lacking in courage. By the way, yesterday marked the one-year anniversary of his death.<BR/><BR/>The question I am asking, though, has to do, not so much with my father's character as with protocol. It is one thing to "speak out," and another to "speak out of turn." I would not say my father was given to "speaking out of turn."<BR/><BR/>Unless, do you know if it has been standardly acceptable practice for sitting presidents to use their position as a platform to address issues like this? I'm really not sure.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1163655208308060222006-11-16T00:33:00.000-05:002006-11-16T00:33:00.000-05:00Brad, Stop! Stop! I can’t stand being silent ...Brad,<BR/> Stop! Stop! I can’t stand being silent when your thinking went out the window. You said, “Wow – Wise Words.” <BR/> I thought ‘word’ was only capitalized when it was God’s. Did this cult person blind you when he called you “Dr.”? Did his “great insight” reveal ‘blind—leaders of the blind’?<BR/><BR/>He was against doing something that would “gather more souls.” To me, his suggestion seemed straight from the devil, but to you it was “wise.” You agreed with him because he agreed with you. <BR/><BR/>Nuff said.<BR/>Rex RayRex Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06976501582240117188noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1163652378735253342006-11-15T23:46:00.000-05:002006-11-15T23:46:00.000-05:00Brad:- Ok, we disagree on the tongues issue. And w...Brad:- <BR/>Ok, we disagree on the tongues issue. And we probably disagree on how this whole controversy started. I can leave it at that. We both may eventually gain a more objective perspective years down the road -- depending on who writes the history. :) <BR/><BR/>Steve:-<BR/>I'm not familiar with any Baptist or Vineyard pastors in Oz. But I would agree that it's wrong for a pastor to try to "hijack" a church. Anywhere. Absolutely. And the statement you quoted, with a little bit of the context, would rightly cause concern. But there also may be another side to the story. :)<BR/><BR/>When John Wimber went to Australia (in the mid- to late-1980s, I think), I understand that he showed great integrity and respect for local pastors and denominational leaders when he agreed not to target Australia for his conferences or church planting because it upset them. So he didn't go back. Evidently other Aussie pastors later chose to affiliate anyway. <BR/><BR/>I'm not sure why you think I should make it clear that I am affiliated with the Vineyard movement. Actually, I am not. I do know a handful of Vineyard pastors (spread out on a few continents), and I've read Vineyard literature. I even invited a German Swiss Vineyard missionary in Thailand to teach one weekend in our church on "The Kingdom of God". And we have adopted a Statement of Faith that comes from the Vineyard movement -- because we believe it to be eminently biblical and properly focused on the Kingdom of God. But I'm not a Vineyard pastor nor is our church affiliated in any way. But if I were formally or more informally associated, what would that prove? Guilt by association? <BR/><BR/>I am the founding pastor of our church here in KL. It was never anything other than an international evangelical church from its beginning. <BR/><BR/>Sorry if I sound defensive, but I do think that, while your accusations of subterfuge by charismatics has merit in some cases (one is too many), there is always another side to each story to help balance it toward objectivity. <BR/><BR/>I think you're trying to tag me with some sort of hidden plot or agenda. Not true. I've never had a position or any influence beyond the associational level, and I'm certainly not seeking any now. I will carry on my work for the King, whether inside or outside of the SBC, depending on how the Lord leads. <BR/><BR/>What I've observed over the last thirty years among SB churches has been a gradual opening to more expressive worship and the gifts of the Spirit; but now I also see an attempt to clamp down on any further movement in that direction -- in the name of what is properly and historically Baptist (which, of course, some people equate with what is biblical.)<BR/><BR/>I am merely one pastor, from a long line of Southern Baptists, who recognizes that God can bring new understandings of His Word and a fresh and Spirit-empowered obedience to His commission using the spiritual gifts He gives. I don't think this "agenda" is far off from what many Baptist pastors and leaders long for. Do you?<BR/><BR/>If/when you reply, please do have your coffee after your Wheaties! ;) And maybe we should take any further conversation over to email. <BR/><BR/>In Christ,<BR/>ToddAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1163638134801593052006-11-15T19:48:00.000-05:002006-11-15T19:48:00.000-05:00David,I hesitate to give my impression of a man to...David,<BR/><BR/>I hesitate to give my impression of a man to his son...however, please know my impression of your father comes with great reverence and is very positive...I am extremely uncomfortable speaking of what I think he might or might not have done, for I do not know and am in NO position to even assume. Personally, I would not even want to speak for people I knew very well, who have passed.<BR/><BR/>And yet, you ask a fair and excellent Question, and I do not want to be impolite by refusing to answer. Thus, if my answer in anyway offends any, please forgive me.<BR/><BR/>However, to the degree that I knew your father, which is obviously inconsequential to your knowledge, I never saw him as one who would keep silent on an issue that he felt was wrong. I am convinced that if he felt NAMB was doing something wrong, he would never have allowed a position (President) to keep him from addressing it…in fact, my impression of him was that he would use his position to speak to things he felt were wrong.<BR/><BR/>I may very well be wrong, but that was my impression of him.<BR/><BR/>Thanks<BR/>BRbrad reynoldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01449596955689180340noreply@blogger.com