tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post115869027809754356..comments2023-08-21T09:15:59.650-05:00Comments on Guardian Ministries: Dr. Eitel's First Paper w Cover Letterbrad reynoldshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01449596955689180340noreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1158874825489804832006-09-21T16:40:00.000-05:002006-09-21T16:40:00.000-05:00J V,One more thing. I did not tell anyone what the...J V,<BR/><BR/>One more thing. I did not tell anyone what they could or could not do. I said it was not proper behavior for Mr. Johns to say what he did. There is a difference. He has the right to speak and so do I have the right to be critical of what he says on an open forum. You have the same right. You just need to reference it correctly.<BR/><BR/>cbCB Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02230652312241919771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1158874447651070502006-09-21T16:34:00.000-05:002006-09-21T16:34:00.000-05:00John v,My point is simple. Some things should be l...John v,<BR/><BR/>My point is simple. Some things should be left alone, especially something that would make it appear that a son would misuse his father's history. If you cannot see that then stand in the corner with Ben Cole:-)<BR/><BR/>cbCB Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02230652312241919771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1158852332894810792006-09-21T10:25:00.000-05:002006-09-21T10:25:00.000-05:00One more thing,To the best I can recall, I have ne...One more thing,<BR/><BR/>To the best I can recall, I have never used my Dad's name on a blogpost or comment on someone else's post, defending a view of my own, with the exception of the original letter I sent to the IMB Trustees on <A HREF="http://loveeachstone.blogspot.com/2006/03/jan-24-letter-to-imb-trustees.html" REL="nofollow">Jan. 24</A>.<BR/><BR/>On other occasions, I have merely responded to others who I believed had misrepresented my Dad, or taken something he had said out of context.<BR/><BR/>I am open to being shown otherwise, though.David Rogershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11701934251748260267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1158851766920838952006-09-21T10:16:00.000-05:002006-09-21T10:16:00.000-05:00Everyone,No, I do not know every detail of what my...Everyone,<BR/><BR/>No, I do not know every detail of what my Dad thought about every issue. I do think I have a pretty good read on what his heart was, though, in general.<BR/><BR/>I believe I have been careful to differentiate between those things I have a pretty good idea about my Dad, and those I never got to talk to him about directly.<BR/><BR/>I also believe my Mother was not speaking out of turn when she said:<BR/><BR/>“Adrian Rogers would not have been a part of what is going on in some parts of our convention today, getting narrower and narrower about very highly interpretive issues. He would try to convince you of his view, but not to exclude you from service and fellowship, or to prevent you from going around the world with Southern Baptists to share the Gospel if you disagreed on these controversial issues.” <BR/><BR/>Anonymous,<BR/><BR/>If you could refer me to the specific quotes you mention on Wade's and Marty's blog, I could do a better job of responding to you.David Rogershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11701934251748260267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1158851305395974902006-09-21T10:08:00.000-05:002006-09-21T10:08:00.000-05:00CB,Here's what I don't get - you said, "Even if yo...CB,<BR/><BR/>Here's what I don't get - you said, <I>"Even if you disagree with David some things are better left unsaid for the sake of honor and proper behavior."</I><BR/><BR/>So people are not allowed to disagree with something said because it came from Dr. Rogers' son? What if something totally different came from his other son about how Dr. Rogers felt? What if Mr. Johns is correct in what was told to him?<BR/><BR/>I mean no disrespect towards David, and <B>certainly</B> no disrepect towards Dr. Rogers and his legacy. So please don't take it that way, David. I love your family and admired your father more than any man on this earth, next to my own father.<BR/><BR/>It's just hard for me to imagine someone knowing <I>everything</I> their father felt towards the vast amount of issues facing the convention back in the '70's, '80's and up to this day. Is there a chance that other men who fought the fight together back in the day may know more about how someone felt than their own family?<BR/><BR/>If anyone is going to throw their opinion into an open forum, I'm sure they are prepared to listen to the opinions of others about what they espouse. I'm certain David is grown up enough to handle is own "fights," for the lack of a better word.<BR/><BR/>I can assure you I know my own father better than anyone in this world, after my mom. Having said that, I'm sure there are countless men who know where he stands on issues related to the convention and the faith far better than I. This may not have been the case with David and his father, so forgive me, David, if I am wrong.<BR/><BR/>However, CB, it's not your role to play "hall monitor" and tell others what they can and can't say in an open forum, especially Brad's open forum. If Dr. Reynolds finds something tasteless and out of line, then it is his prerogative to admonish and even delete a comment, just like it's Ben Coles prerogative to make childish and personal attacks ("increasingly bald and portly") against Dr. Patterson in his blog.Jonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08877850238024275202noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1158847754718933692006-09-21T09:09:00.000-05:002006-09-21T09:09:00.000-05:00i have heard dr. rogers preach many, many times. ...i have heard dr. rogers preach many, many times. i have heard him speak strongly against extremes like tongues and other charismatic practices. i have heard him speak strongly against women pastors and deacons. i have heard him speak strongly against five point calvinism.<BR/><BR/>i believe that a man that saw as much wrong and dangerous with these extremes and errors, and preached so strongly against them, would not be for our missionaries being involved in them. am i wrong to think this? <BR/><BR/>volfan007volfan007https://www.blogger.com/profile/15635929001030697924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1158846892223613102006-09-21T08:54:00.000-05:002006-09-21T08:54:00.000-05:00Mr. Johns,Sitting with Dr. Rogers at a convention ...Mr. Johns,<BR/><BR/>Sitting with Dr. Rogers at a convention is far different than being born to him and growing up in his home as did David.<BR/><BR/>Brad has been gracious with David. That is true, but you, sir, are guilty of rude behavior toward a brother that is not here to speak for himself and to his son and other family members, for that matter, in suggesting you would know Dr. Rogers' heart on any matter better than his son. Shame on you for you comment.<BR/><BR/>Even if you disagree with David some things are better left unsaid for the sake of honor and proper behavior.<BR/><BR/>You have not right to put David in any position wherein he may feel it necessary to defend his relationship to his father. It is you, sir that needs to stand down and you need to do so now.<BR/><BR/>cbCB Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02230652312241919771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1158845744696890012006-09-21T08:35:00.000-05:002006-09-21T08:35:00.000-05:00Mr. David Rogers,I have delayed in getting involve...Mr. David Rogers,<BR/><BR/>I have delayed in getting involved in this mess as long as I could. Please know the spirit in which write is one of sorrow and brokenness.<BR/><BR/>I loved your father, as did most of our fellow Southern Baptists. He was a man of great integrity and honor. SBC owes much of who we are today to his wisdom, influence, and leadership.<BR/><BR/>I knew your dad and spoke with him on several occasions. In fact we sat together for a time at the convention in Nashville in 2005.<BR/><BR/>The things they he conveyed to me and other Southern Baptist are a bit different than you are portraying.<BR/><BR/>Please do not dishonor him or his memory. He would not be in favor of all that is taking place on these blogs. Some of your comments on Wades and Marty’s blogs are just wrong in the way you use Dr. Rogers to defend your position. Please stand on your on convictions and do not drag his name into this.<BR/><BR/>Dr. Reynolds has been truthful and forthright with all of us. Please Mr. Rogers, let it go.<BR/><BR/>Tommy Johns<BR/><BR/>I do not have a website or webname, sorryAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1158845627326759682006-09-21T08:33:00.000-05:002006-09-21T08:33:00.000-05:00Mr. David Rogers,I have delayed getting involved i...Mr. David Rogers,<BR/><BR/>I have delayed getting involved in this mess as long as I could. Please know the spirit in which write is one of sorry and brokenness.<BR/><BR/>I loved your father, as did most of our fellow Southern Baptists. He was a man of great integrity and honor. SBC owes much of who we are today to his wisdom, influence, and leadership.<BR/><BR/>I knew your dad and spoke with him on several occasions. In fact we sat together for a time at the convention in Nashville in 2005.<BR/><BR/>The things they he conveyed to me and other Southern Baptist are a bit different than you are portraying.<BR/><BR/>Please do not dishonor him or his memory. He would not be in favor of all that is taking place on these blogs. Some of your comments on Wades and Marty’s blogs are just wrong in the way you use Dr. Rogers to defend your position. Please stand on your on convictions and do not drag his name into this.<BR/><BR/>Dr. Reynolds has been truthful and forthright with all of us. Please Mr. Rogers, let it go.<BR/><BR/>Tommy Johns<BR/><BR/>I do not have a website or webname, sorryAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1158844664249062262006-09-21T08:17:00.000-05:002006-09-21T08:17:00.000-05:00DavidThanks for your insight and transparency.God ...David<BR/>Thanks for your insight and transparency.<BR/>God bless you my brother,<BR/>BRbrad reynoldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01449596955689180340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1158820727989722122006-09-21T01:38:00.000-05:002006-09-21T01:38:00.000-05:00Brad,No, I do not know of my father ever openly sp...Brad,<BR/><BR/>No, I do not know of my father ever openly speaking against the NAMB policy. However, I do not think that necessarily proves one way or the other how he might have felt about it. What I wrote earlier about him expressing his opinion to IMB trustees, was solely in answer to questions brought to him on a personal, private basis. He did not, as far as I know, make any public stand on IMB policies either.David Rogershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11701934251748260267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1158820457077724292006-09-21T01:34:00.000-05:002006-09-21T01:34:00.000-05:00Jeremy,For the most part, your latest comment in r...Jeremy,<BR/><BR/>For the most part, your latest comment in response to me is well taken. I hesitated when I wrote "2nd and 3rd tier doctrinal issues," due to the very point you mention. However, I decided to leave in both, because I believe much of the questions being discussed in SBC life as of late have to do with a tendency to confuse 2nd and 3rd tier issues. What is my 3rd tier issue may be your 2nd tier issue, and vice versa. Also, there are 2nd tier issues that define our "in house" cooperation as Baptists that I do not feel should necessarily limit our cooperation with others who disagree with us, in, for example, many international mission projects. Also, in my opinion, there are still some details in the BFM that, at the moment of truth, I believe most Baptists would still consider to be 3rd tier rather than 2nd (i.e. closed communion).<BR/><BR/>Once again, though, with the exception of these caveats, for me, your point is well taken.David Rogershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11701934251748260267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1158808559153668792006-09-20T22:15:00.000-05:002006-09-20T22:15:00.000-05:00David,I appreciate your comments. As always, you ...David,<BR/><BR/>I appreciate your comments. As always, you state your point of view in a kind and gracious manner – that is definitely commendable. I too would agree that we do not “need to ‘cross every t and dot every i’ the same in order to cooperate in missions.” I also agree with you that 1st tier doctrinal issues, the fundamentals of the faith, definitely take “priority over ‘mission’ in what joins us in our cooperative efforts.”<BR/><BR/>Likewise, I would also contend that 2nd tier doctrinal issues are essentials for Southern Baptists. In my understanding, agreement with 1st tier doctrinal issues is what makes one distinctively Christian; agreement with 2nd tier doctrinal issues is what makes one distinctively Baptist (especially Southern Baptist); and 3rd tier doctrinal issues are those which are not essential in regards to cooperation.<BR/><BR/>As you know, your father (and our beloved Dr. Rogers) served as the Chairman of the committee that brought forth the current Baptist Faith and Message. The Preamble of the BF&M clearly states that our confession of faith is an “instrument of doctrinal accountability” because it contains those “doctrines we hold precious and as ESSENTIAL to the Baptist tradition of faith and practice” (BF&M, 5) (emphasis mine).<BR/><BR/>Thus, it would appear that Dr. Rogers, the entire BF&M committee, and the overwhelming majority of Southern Baptists that voted to adopt the BF&M would maintain that all doctrines contained in our statement of faith, whether 1st or 2nd tier (none of which are 3rd tier), are essential beliefs for anyone that seeks to serve our convention as a trustee or as an employee.<BR/><BR/>Thanks and God bless!!!<BR/><BR/>In Christ,<BR/>JLGJeremy Greenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10905768244404899040noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1158792582410790252006-09-20T17:49:00.000-05:002006-09-20T17:49:00.000-05:00DavidI think your father was the President of the ...David<BR/><BR/>I think your father was the President of the SBC in 1988 when NAMB (at that time the HMB) gave its report. The previous year they implemented a policy where a person could not be a NAMB missionary if they spoke in a private prayer language.<BR/>I don't think your father spoke against it at the convention...do you know if he ever spoke against it?<BR/><BR/>Thanks<BR/>BRbrad reynoldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01449596955689180340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1158790288351332122006-09-20T17:11:00.000-05:002006-09-20T17:11:00.000-05:00Jeremy (and others),I believe the whole issue of D...Jeremy (and others),<BR/><BR/>I believe the whole issue of Doctrine vis a vis Missions, and my father's dialogue with Keith Parks, can be better understood from a framework of "triage." That is, if we are talking about 1st tier doctrinal issues, then "doctrine" definitely takes priority over "mission" in what joins us in our cooperative efforts. If not, we would be working on essentially different "missions." However, when it comes to 2nd and 3rd tier doctrinal issues, the relative priority of our cooperation based on a common "mission" begins to take more precedence. I do not believe my father would have said we need to "cross every t and dot every i" the same in order to cooperate in missions. But, on the great fundamentals of the faith, yes, we MUST be in agreement. <BR/><BR/>Thus, I do not think it is fair to classify those who are calling out for broader parameters on 2nd and 3rd tier issues in the same group as my father was addressing in this dialogue with Keith Parks.<BR/><BR/>As my mother said at the Pastors Conference in Greensboro: <BR/><BR/>“Adrian Rogers would not have been a part of what is going on in some parts of our convention today, getting narrower and narrower about very highly interpretive issues. He would try to convince you of his view, but not to exclude you from service and fellowship, or to prevent you from going around the world with Southern Baptists to share the Gospel if you disagreed on these controversial issues.” <BR/><BR/>By the way, I posted my own thoughts on Eitel's Vision Assessment paper several months ago <A HREF="http://loveeachstone.blogspot.com/2006/05/historical-documents-baptist_27.html" REL="nofollow">here</A>.<BR/><BR/>I look forward to reading the Second Paper, as I have not seen it yet.David Rogershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11701934251748260267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1158787858319953772006-09-20T16:30:00.000-05:002006-09-20T16:30:00.000-05:00CBThanks for the update my friend, but until Marty...CB<BR/>Thanks for the update my friend, but until Marty removes the slander toward Dr. Patterson implied by Ben I believe his removing is subjective. <BR/><BR/>CB - you have always been gracious to Dr. Patterson in the comments I have read, even when you disagree with him. Thank You<BR/>BRbrad reynoldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01449596955689180340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1158787063635835912006-09-20T16:17:00.001-05:002006-09-20T16:17:00.001-05:00JeremyThanksBRJeremy<BR/>Thanks<BR/>BRbrad reynoldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01449596955689180340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1158787029521939122006-09-20T16:17:00.000-05:002006-09-20T16:17:00.000-05:00JimThanks for your input.Be patient with me...we w...Jim<BR/>Thanks for your input.<BR/>Be patient with me...we will move on in time:)<BR/>BRbrad reynoldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01449596955689180340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1158786916370351042006-09-20T16:15:00.000-05:002006-09-20T16:15:00.000-05:00To AllA correction:I feel if I am going to point o...To All<BR/><BR/>A correction:<BR/><BR/>I feel if I am going to point out where other bloggers have erred by making assumptions, I certainly must be willing to own up to my mistakes. I have made one.<BR/><BR/>Earlier on this strand of comments I stated “(Ben) was released from SW and I know why.” This comment, according to Ben, caused Marty Duren to contact him. Ben then called me and confronted my with it (it provided a good opportunity for me to speak to him also concerning the erroneous implications he made concerning Dr. Patterson – although I feel we reached an impasse there). <BR/><BR/>I was wrong. I know what I have been told as to why he was released (whether I heard it from individuals Ben has told or not is really not the point). The point is: I said “I know” and he was correct in maintaining I do not “know” because I have not seen the personnel records. I certainly have not shared the reason with anyone and have no desire to…I don’t think it benefits the kingdom at this point. <BR/><BR/>Ben, I apologize for making the statement, and thank you for pointing out my mistake.<BR/> <BR/>My desire has always been to speak truth and seek truth without spinning it. That is what this blog is all about. Therefore I gladly make the correction and will try even harder with God ‘s help, to be more diligent in this area and thereby provide a model for other blogs.<BR/><BR/>BRbrad reynoldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01449596955689180340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1158786694544209552006-09-20T16:11:00.000-05:002006-09-20T16:11:00.000-05:00Brad,I believe that this post is very relevant to ...Brad,<BR/><BR/>I believe that this post is very relevant to the current discussion in the SBC and hope that many will read it. BTW, I have provided a link to your post on my blog. God bless!!!<BR/><BR/>In Christ,<BR/>JLGJeremy Greenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10905768244404899040noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1158786407910927712006-09-20T16:06:00.000-05:002006-09-20T16:06:00.000-05:00Brad,You may or may not know that Marty has remove...Brad,<BR/><BR/>You may or may not know that Marty has removed two comments from his most recent post that were overboard and in poor taste about Dr. Patterson. <BR/><BR/>It is my opinion that it was one or two rude children whose parents failed to beat them often enough for their rude behavior and now they are lacking proper character in their adulthood.<BR/><BR/>I do agree with you about such things. If you notice I never refer to Dr. Patterson unless I use his official title. I do not do that for all.<BR/><BR/>cbCB Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02230652312241919771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1158781879494862992006-09-20T14:51:00.000-05:002006-09-20T14:51:00.000-05:00JimI have been slack in enforcing my rules, hoping...Jim<BR/>I have been slack in enforcing my rules, hoping many will correct their comments with some encouragement. I may have to tighten up.<BR/><BR/>The subject matter will move to tongues after we deal with Eitel's second letter. <BR/><BR/>Many blogs just do drive-by's on topics. I have tackled alcohol thoroughly and allowed all to post comments so it could be viewed all-encompassingly.<BR/><BR/>I will be doing the same here and on tongues.<BR/><BR/>For SB's to make informed decisions on these important issues I think they need to be thoroughly informed. For those who already know the issues thoroughly I apologize but let's bear with others who may not have read anything of Eitel's second letter or know nothing of his first paper except what they read in ABP.<BR/><BR/>Thanks my friend<BR/>BRbrad reynoldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01449596955689180340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1158781540084329432006-09-20T14:45:00.000-05:002006-09-20T14:45:00.000-05:00Anonymous MThank you for your insightsBRAnonymous M<BR/>Thank you for your insights<BR/>BRbrad reynoldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01449596955689180340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1158781458505078492006-09-20T14:44:00.000-05:002006-09-20T14:44:00.000-05:00Tim and Bro. RobinExcellent insights! Interesting...Tim and Bro. Robin<BR/><BR/>Excellent insights! Interestingly Dr. Patterson and Dr. Eitel were responding to concerns from their students. When is it not the responsibility of an administrator to protect their students. Further, one would be wise to ask Dr. Patterson’s wisdom. Finally he states clearly his motives. Finally, “principled dissent” according to a group of bloggers apparently doesn’t apply to those who may disagree with them or to those who may disagree with their friends but only those who disagree with Dr. Patterson (an interesting hermeneutic).brad reynoldshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01449596955689180340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30205757.post-1158765350606508542006-09-20T10:15:00.000-05:002006-09-20T10:15:00.000-05:00Anonymous M in Level III area,Praise God for you a...Anonymous M in Level III area,<BR/><BR/>Praise God for you and your family. I am praying for you.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the information. It clearly shows this White Paper was the catalyst for change.<BR/><BR/>Blessings,<BR/>TimTim Rogershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02909751217844312917noreply@blogger.com